No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

[_Coggins7]

Jersey---I have to say that I am at a loss as to why you would in any way, shape, or form compare yourself to Loran. Also, I'm unaware of any post in which I called him a "coward." (Though I would be the first to admit that it's possible.)

Would you like me to search them out and post them here? There must be at least a dozen or so within the last couple of months. Scratch has also done it to rc on several occasions. Indeed, on a number of occasions Scratch has said that I am "weak" and called me a "coward". So far we've got at least one alcoholic here, one with clinical depression, and now we find out that Scratch has serious short term memory problems, which may be indicative of physical abuse as a rug rat.

My major problem with Scratch isn't his continual lying about the content of his past posts, its that most of his posts get me so depressed I want to get drunk.

I think I may begin my own 12 step program just for members of this board.

Keep coming back.

[_Mercury]

That was precisely my point, Loran. You are confusing the term "expertise" with "discipline"/"professionalism." Just look at your recent exchange with gknowlton. Now, I could be mistaken, and you guys could have a history that I'm unaware of, but it seemed to me that you leapt right into your belittling comments about his intelligence, moral scruples, etc. That is not a sign of discipline or professionalism---by any measure---and it only reinforces my (and Bond's, apparently) sense that you lack this stuff on account of your never having completed college.

Have you sat down and listened to some college faculty discuss the tactics they've used and had used against them to get ahead? They can make this board look incredibly civilized if you dig under the veneer of civility. With livelihood riding on it gets tense but the amount of childishness I saw was insane. A lot of what Covey would have called Lose/Lose tactics.

Please tell me your not a covey cult member.

[_harmony]

Please tell me your not a covey cult member.

What's wrong with Covey?

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey---I have to say that I am at a loss as to why you would in any way, shape, or form compare yourself to Loran. Also, I'm unaware of any post in which I called him a "coward." (Though I would be the first to admit that it's possible.)

Would you like me to search them out and post them here? There must be at least a dozen or so within the last couple of months. Scratch has also done it to rc on several occasions. Indeed, on a number of occasions Scratch has said that I am "weak" and called me a "coward". So far we've got at least one alcoholic here, one with clinical depression, and now we find out that Scratch has serious short term memory problems, which may be indicative of physical abuse as a rug rat.

My major problem with Scratch isn't his continual lying about the content of his past posts, its that most of his posts get me so depressed I want to get drunk.

I think I may begin my own 12 step program just for members of this board.

Keep coming back.

And there's at least one Jersey Girl on here! How sick is that?

Look, Loran, you really need to review the board rules. There is a special section called "Rules for Loran". Here they are for your convenience.

Rules For Loran

1. If you respond in kind...you're screwed.
2. If you respond with humor...you're screwed.
3. If you choose to disengage...you're screwed.

See how that works?

Jersey Girl
;-)

[_harmony]

For what it's worth: I went back to college part time at the age of 38. I started going full time at 39. I got my first degree at 40, my second at 41, my third at 44. I consider the college experience to be so important, it is one of the few requirements I ever had for my children. I didn't care what they studied, or what their eventual career would be, but they had to do something that required a college degree. Even my son in the military is in college. My children have Bachelor degrees in Kinesiology, Elementary Education, Information Systems, Business, Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Economics, Chemical Engineering, and English. Two have masters degrees, in Education and Library Science. The ones who are still in college are working on degrees in Pharmacy, Spanish, Economics, History, Business, and Recreation and Leisure Studies.

I consider a college education so important, I went back after 20 years away. I encourage anyone to get their degree, no matter how old they are. I enjoy seeing retired people returning to school and getting their degree. I don't consider it a waste of time or money, no matter how old they are. The college experience is wothwhile, no matter when it happens.

[_Coggins7]

1. If you respond in kind...you're screwed.
2. If you respond with humor...you're screwed.
3. If you choose to disengage...you're screwed.

See how that works?

Yes. Although Scratch has used this also in a different manner.

1. If I respond in kind, I'm a hypocritical Christian (a bad Mormon)
2, If I respond with satirical humor, I'm a hypocritical Christian (a bad Mormon)
3. If I quit because, as I'm wont to say here now and then, "move along...nothing to see here", then I'm a coward who can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

The only reason I really keep this up with Scratch at all is for the entertainment value. I'm don't mind criticism of the church, I'd just like it to be both civil and intellectually sincere. I mean, comparing Primary to Nazi youth indoctrination is satirical fodder, and nothing more, not serious discussion.

[_Blixa]

The only reason I really keep this up with Scratch at all is for the entertainment value.

Yeah, but its not that entertaining for the rest of us! Speaking purely for myself, I get nothing from following either side in that debate

I'm don't mind criticism of the church, I'd just like it to be both civil and intellectually sincere.

Here. Here.

[_Tommy]

I hope your not looking at me, Brother Tommy.

Not at all my dear Sister! You can only do your best. I imagine you've wet your desktop with tears over the salvation of your pupils. I imagine you've extended class time past the bell on more than one occasion pleading with your students in fervent testimony to hearken unto the counsel of the Brethren. I am pleased with your work as is the Lord.

[_The Nehor]

Please tell me your not a covey cult member.

Oh no.....heck no....hell no.....I did read the book once and thought the term worked here. I barely put up with a weekly planner on my Mission. Now I try not to plan more than 5 minutes in advance.

[_guy sajer]

Oh no.....heck no....hell no.....I did read the book once and thought the term worked here. I barely put up with a weekly planner on my Mission. Now I try not to plan more than 5 minutes in advance.

There you go Nehor, we have something in common. Let's hear it for the chronically disorganized.

I've tried planners, PDA's just about everything, but I'm simply not hard wired to be organized. Can't do it; more it stresses me out to no end even trying. I've never written from an outline, and I winged it class all the time. I'm a shoot from the hip kind of guy who manages through dint of heroic effort not to forget the really important stuff.

As for Covey, I consider him a snake oil salesmen, he and the Tony Robbins' of the world. Their real genius is marketing themselves and their feel-good recycled PMA sh**. They peddle pablum that grossly simplifies the complexity of life and badly underestimates the difficulty of human change. I'd imagine the long-term, sustainable success rate of people who abide by their programs is well below 10%.

But people want to feel good about themselves; want to believe they can change, and more importantly, want desperately to believe it's really easy after all--just follow these 7 steps--that they pony up millions of dollars for the charlatan Coveys' and Robbins' of the world.

The biggest impact of all this feel good nonsense is that Covey gets to build the biggest house in Provo on top of a hill that everyone can see and thereby proclaim to the world the fact that he's really successful and really, really rich.