secret combinations

[_The Nehor]

The organization of those councils is not secret or sacred. The method is laid out in the D&C. I just had to ask friends who were on the High Council to find out how they work. I have never been to one though.

The doors are closed. The proceedings are not public. Even family members are not allowed in.

I said the organization is not secret. If I was called to a disciplinary council tomorrow I would know exactly what to expect.

[_Jason Bourne]

I would add to this list the semi-secrecy of the CHI. Yes, I know it is available online, but the Church tried very, very hard---to the extent that they nearly changed a fundamental aspect of the Internet---to prevent it from being publicly "leaked." Further, within the context of the Church, the CHI is essentially kept from the membership. I.e., the members are kept in the dark as to the very rules which govern the operations of the Church.

You would be foolish to add it. First Harmony is talking about secret combinations which this poor example is far from if accurate, which it is not. Any member can review the CHI. All they need to do is ask a leader to see it. by the way, being in posession of one for some time I can tell you that you are not missing much.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason

It does not matter what you think, it matters what the majority of the Church you criticizes thinks.

With all due respect Jason (and I mean that) does the majority of the Church vote on such things?

Jersey Girl

[_Jason Bourne]

I can accept that, Jason. What I'm having a hard time with is the secrecy that permeates the LDS church.

As noted, secrecy and secret combinations can be different.

Why are the temples closed? There's nothing there that is inappropriate.

I am not sure. I would have no problem with making the temple more open. I find nothing astonishing there. I do think that there should be a certian level of commitment before a member goes and makes the covenants they make there.

Why are the books closed? If there's nothing untoward going on, open them up!

I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.

Why are disciplinary proceedings closed?

Because frankly they are not the business of anybody accpet those involved. I do not think most members subject to them would want them open.

Why is the CHI kept from the members?

It is not. I was able to read the entire thing before I was ever in a position to get one. I just asked my bishop if I could borrow one and read it. He gave it to me to read.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason

It does not matter what you think, it matters what the majority of the Church you criticizes thinks.

With all due respect Jason (and I mean that) does the majority of the Church vote on such things?

Jersey Girl

Of course. The D&C is after all accepted as CANON for the LDS Church.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason

It does not matter what you think, it matters what the majority of the Church you criticizes thinks.

With all due respect Jason (and I mean that) does the majority of the Church vote on such things?

Jersey Girl

Of course. The D&C is after all accepted as CANON for the LDS Church.

Can you give me the section of D&C that dictates the financial records be made inaccessible to members?

Jersey Girl

[Guest]

I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.

I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.

And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?

Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.

To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"

Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.

Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!

[_harmony]

I can accept that, Jason. What I'm having a hard time with is the secrecy that permeates the LDS church.

As noted, secrecy and secret combinations can be different.

Poor choice of words on my part. My apologies.

Why are the temples closed? There's nothing there that is inappropriate.

I am not sure. I would have no problem with making the temple more open. I find nothing astonishing there. I do think that there should be a certian level of commitment before a member goes and makes the covenants they make there.

Yes, but that only goes to support what I'm saying. We ask a certain level of commitment prior to baptism, but no one would ever think of closing a baptism to family, friends, even the general public can come if they want. Even the initiatories could be done in such a way as to be made public if parents or friends wish to be part of that. It is, when all's said and done, one of the most beautiful blessings we can ever receive.

Why are the books closed? If there's nothing untoward going on, open them up!

I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.

Not even the members know the assets of the church. And so what if GA's get paid a stipend. They should! Just because we've been saying they don't for years doens't mean we have to continue with that fiction, does it?

Why are disciplinary proceedings closed?

Because frankly they are not the business of anybody accpet those involved. I do not think most members subject to them would want them open.

They should be as open as a baptism, for the same reasons. Family and friends should be able to support the person. And if the person is being disciplined because they commited a crime, then the public has the right to know.

Why is the CHI kept from the members?

It is not. I was able to read the entire thing before I was ever in a position to get one. I just asked my bishop if I could borrow one and read it. He gave it to me to read.

I can't buy one, Jason. It's the rulebook of an organization of which I am a member, but I can't have one, can't buy one, have to ask for one. That's backwards. I should be given one, as a matter of course. And should be encouraged to read it.

[_The Nehor]

I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.

I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.

And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?

Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.

To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"

Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.

Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!

Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.

I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.

This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.

[_Jersey Girl]

I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.

I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.

And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?

Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.

To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"

Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.

Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!

Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.

I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.

This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.

Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.

Jersey Girl