The Prophet Boasts

[_Jersey Girl]

And what great apostasy?

Huh?

That's a non-answer, Loran. What great apostasy? When did it occur and how?

Jersey Girl

[_Jason Bourne]

The church certainly did survive the death of the The Prophet. I don't think that's in question. So did several other churches, including the FLDS, the CoC, the UAB, and to a certain extent, the TLC. I think that is the point. I think the prosperity of the LDS church is a direct result of Brigham's influence, not Joseph's.

Yes Brigham certianly had a lot to do with it. Of course those the accept the SLC Church is the rightful succesors believe GOd had a hand in it. It is interesting to me that Wycliff Rigdon, Sidney's son, later joined the Utah Church and said the BY was the man for the day and if that if his father had taken the lead the Church would not have survived.

[_Jason Bourne]

And what great apostasy?

Huh?

That's a non-answer, Loran. What great apostasy? When did it occur and how?

Jersey Girl

Mormons beleive the great apostasy started with the death of Jesus apostles and was due to the loss of priesthood authority after their death. Of course nobody has a date but one could place it early first century forward.

Interestingly if you are Protestant in background your religion believes in an apostasy of sorts and while Protestants have down played that some over the years they certianly did not when the reformation began. If there were no apostasy then all Protestant denominations are unecessary and Rome should be where you look to.

[_The Dude]

This quote came up in a recent discussion elsewhere:

Joseph Smith (May 26, 1844)

"Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

For the sake of remaining on topic, I'd like to ignore the underlying issue of polygamy contained in the full speech.

What does the Prophet mean by his references to Paul, John, Peter and Jesus?

Jersey Girl

This quote sounds like something a coach says in the locker room to get his team psyched up. That's probably what Joseph was doing, just getting the team prepared to kick some serious [spiritual] ass. The part about "Neither... nor Jesus ever did it," is reminiscent of the Beatles claiming to be bigger than Jesus. It's all just Joe talking tough. Did he measure up? The proof is in the pudding (meaning... all the fruits of his original work, including polygamy).

[_harmony]

And what great apostasy?

Huh?

That's a non-answer, Loran. What great apostasy? When did it occur and how?

Jersey Girl

Mormons beleive the great apostasy started with the death of Jesus apostles and was due to the loss of priesthood authority after their death. Of course nobody has a date but one could place it early first century forward.

Interestingly if you are Protestant in background your religion believes in an apostasy of sorts and while Protestants have down played that some over the years they certianly did not when the reformation began. If there were no apostasy then all Protestant denominations are unecessary and Rome should be where you look to.

Don't Catholics think the Protestants are the apostates? And that the Great Apostacy started when Luther nailed his paper to the door?

[_The Nehor]

This quote came up in a recent discussion elsewhere:

Joseph Smith (May 26, 1844)

"Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

For the sake of remaining on topic, I'd like to ignore the underlying issue of polygamy contained in the full speech.

What does the Prophet mean by his references to Paul, John, Peter and Jesus?

Jersey Girl

He did qualify his statement with saying a 'large majority of the whole have stood by me' so he accounted for tiny offshoots. Most of the large offshoots took place after his death but even then the majority stood by Brigham.

No one ever did do the work he did. I think the reference refers to the arrest of Jesus where all fled (even Peter though he did show himself willing to fight) when the soldiers arrived. The Saints were not protecting Joseph only because he didn't ask them too. As others have stated the Nauvoo Legion probably could have levelled the surrounding townships and possibly even have taken over the state before the U.S. army or any other force could have stopped them.

Jesus said some things that could qualify as a boast in a similar vein when he speaks of conquering death, being one with God, passing judgment on others regularly and often, and saying that he was the only hope of salvation.

[_harmony]

He did qualify his statement with saying a 'large majority of the whole have stood by me' so he accounted for tiny offshoots. Most of the large offshoots took place after his death but even then the majority stood by Brigham.

No one ever did do the work he did. I think the reference refers to the arrest of Jesus where all fled (even Peter though he did show himself willing to fight) when the soldiers arrived. The Saints were not protecting Joseph only because he didn't ask them too.

Jesus didn't ask his followers to protect him either.

As others have stated the Nauvoo Legion probably could have levelled the surrounding townships and possibly even have taken over the state before the U.S. army or any other force could have stopped them.

And they were smart. Because the whole kit and kabootle would have been wiped out by the US Army, had they done something stupid, like level the surrounding townships.

Jesus said some things that could qualify as a boast in a similar vein when he speaks of conquering death, being one with God, passing judgment on others regularly and often, and saying that he was the only hope of salvation.

The difference was, Jesus was only stating the truth.

[_Jersey Girl]

Nehor

He did qualify his statement with saying a 'large majority of the whole have stood by me' so he accounted for tiny offshoots. Most of the large offshoots took place after his death but even then the majority stood by Brigham.

Are you at all implying that Peter, John and Paul didn't follow through in spreading the Gospel? That they didn't die as martyrs for the faith (The Way)?

No one ever did do the work he did. I think the reference refers to the arrest of Jesus where all fled (even Peter though he did show himself willing to fight) when the soldiers arrived. The Saints were not protecting Joseph only because he didn't ask them too. As others have stated the Nauvoo Legion probably could have levelled the surrounding townships and possibly even have taken over the state before the U.S. army or any other force could have stopped them.

I am going to read up again on the final days of Joseph and review the circumstances. I can think of no place in the Bible where there is an indication that Jesus asked his followers to protect him and where they failed to meet his request. You statement disagrees with that of Jason Bourne who said that the Saints were told not to come in exchange for Joseph's protection. Again, I need to review this.

Having said that, I'd like you to tell me what work Joseph did that you (and he) refers to. This is relevant to the reason I started this thread. I hope there is someone in particular reading this thread and I'd like to hash that particular part out with someone in their view.

Jesus said some things that could qualify as a boast in a similar vein when he speaks of conquering death, being one with God, passing judgment on others regularly and often, and saying that he was the only hope of salvation.

Does Jesus ever say he is greater than God or has done a greater work than God? Again, what is the greater work that Joseph did? This is a critical point I'd like to draw out. [/quote]

[_The Nehor]

He did qualify his statement with saying a 'large majority of the whole have stood by me' so he accounted for tiny offshoots. Most of the large offshoots took place after his death but even then the majority stood by Brigham.

No one ever did do the work he did. I think the reference refers to the arrest of Jesus where all fled (even Peter though he did show himself willing to fight) when the soldiers arrived. The Saints were not protecting Joseph only because he didn't ask them too.

Jesus didn't ask his followers to protect him either.

As others have stated the Nauvoo Legion probably could have levelled the surrounding townships and possibly even have taken over the state before the U.S. army or any other force could have stopped them.

And they were smart. Because the whole kit and kabootle would have been wiped out by the US Army, had they done something stupid, like level the surrounding townships.

Jesus said some things that could qualify as a boast in a similar vein when he speaks of conquering death, being one with God, passing judgment on others regularly and often, and saying that he was the only hope of salvation.

The difference was, Jesus was only stating the truth.

No, Jesus didn't ask his followers to save him. But unless you believe Ben-hur was historical, Joseph had a legion who would have come and Jesus didn't. His followers fled realizing he was most likely going to his death. Joseph's followers had a pledge of protection.

I question whether the U.S. army could or would have stopped the Nauvoo Legion. The Nauvoo Legion was over half the size of the U.S. army at the time. The U.S. army was spread out, the Legion was not. If Joseph had conquered Illinois would the Federal Government have stepped in? They would now I'm sure but States were much more sovereign then.

Joseph also told the truth. No man did what he did. He did what Jesus and others did not.

Jesus did do a greater work though....much greater. But Jesus was not just a man.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor

He did qualify his statement with saying a 'large majority of the whole have stood by me' so he accounted for tiny offshoots. Most of the large offshoots took place after his death but even then the majority stood by Brigham.

Are you at all implying that Peter, John and Paul didn't follow through in spreading the Gospel? That they didn't die as martyrs for the faith (The Way)?

No one ever did do the work he did. I think the reference refers to the arrest of Jesus where all fled (even Peter though he did show himself willing to fight) when the soldiers arrived. The Saints were not protecting Joseph only because he didn't ask them too. As others have stated the Nauvoo Legion probably could have levelled the surrounding townships and possibly even have taken over the state before the U.S. army or any other force could have stopped them.

I am going to read up again on the final days of Joseph and review the circumstances. I can think of no place in the Bible where there is an indication that Jesus asked his followers to protect him and where they failed to meet his request. You statement disagrees with that of Jason Bourne who said that the Saints were told not to come in exchange for Joseph's protection. Again, I need to review this.

Having said that, I'd like you to tell me what work Joseph did that you (and he) refers to. This is relevant to the reason I started this thread. I hope there is someone in particular reading this thread and I'd like to hash that particular part out with someone in their view.

Jesus said some things that could qualify as a boast in a similar vein when he speaks of conquering death, being one with God, passing judgment on others regularly and often, and saying that he was the only hope of salvation.

Does Jesus ever say he is greater than God or has done a greater work than God? Again, what is the greater work that Joseph did? This is a critical point I'd like to draw out.

[/quote]

I imply no such thing about Peter and the others. Truthfully I've always felt a greater bond to Peter than Joseph but that's probably due to a similarity in disposition from what I've read.

I do think Joseph could have physically protected himself by refusing the governor's pledge of security and asking the Legion to defend him. Jesus's followers knew why he was arrested and did not stay. Again, I credit Peter for alone standing to fight but from the record we (and Joseph) have and had he was the only one and they knew they were probably leaving him to die. From what I've read Peter and (probably) John observed the trials at least. Admittedly we don't know if the Legion could have saved Joseph. Jesus himself said that he could be saved without earthly aid by summoning legions of angels.

Joseph did not claim he was greater than God. He said 'no man' had done the work he had done. I don't think he was including God in that statement. The work Joseph refers to is (in my opinion) the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the Earth never again to be taken away until he whose right it is to rule returns. No one else did this work. His boast would be similar to that that Jesus gave to John the Baptist. No one else had ever done such a work.