Jason Bourne wrote:It is not. I was able to read the entire thing before I was ever in a position to get one. I just asked my bishop if I could borrow one and read it. He gave it to me to read.
I can't buy one, Jason. It's the rulebook of an organization of which I am a member, but I can't have one, can't buy one, have to ask for one. That's backwards. I should be given one, as a matter of course. And should be encouraged to read it.
The CHI is basically "lorded" over by the priesthood authorities in a given ward. I agree with Harmony that one should not have to ask one's ecclesiastical superior for access to the rule book. It is rather like denying (or making it difficult to gain) access to city laws and statutes.
Jason Bourne wrote:I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.
I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.
And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?
Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.
To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"
Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.
Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!
Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.
Jersey Girl
I don't understand why. Can you explain?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
No outside auditors ever go over the books. The books are audited by internal auditors, men who are well aware of where their paycheck comes from, and who well know what would happen were they to publically show, with documentation, that there is skimming, or any sort of malfeasance, including awarding lucrative contracts based on family ties. Public condemnation, ruined careers, excommunication. In that order. Quickly.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Yes. A poor choice of words on my part. However, the secrets are similiarly disturbing.
The Nehor wrote:Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
No outside auditors ever go over the books. The books are audited by internal auditors, men who are well aware of where their paycheck comes from, and who well know what would happen were they to publically show, with documentation, that there is skimming, or any sort of malfeasance, including awarding lucrative contracts based on family ties. Public condemnation, ruined careers, excommunication. In that order. Quickly.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Yes. A poor choice of words on my part. However, the secrets are similiarly disturbing.
That's not the way things work unless you're suggesting that all the Brethren are 'on the take'. I've had to report corporate malfeasance within a corporation and they take care of it quickly and decisively once the facts are in. If you judge the Apostles to all be that corrupt.......I don't know what else to say.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Jason Bourne wrote:I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.
I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.
And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?
Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.
To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"
Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.
Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!
Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.
Jersey Girl
I don't understand why. Can you explain?
Nehor....because you're telling me (if I am reading you correctly and I've discussed this before, so I think that I am reading you correctly) that the "books" are audited from within the church, folks are told that the "books" are sound and there is no transparent disclosure or accounting to the membership.
And you're okay with that.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Nehor, okay look...I'll put it right on the table. There is alot of people being told something about a whole lot of money...and they trust what they are told instead of being given the dignity of a budget report.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
The Nehor wrote:That's not the way things work unless you're suggesting that all the Brethren are 'on the take'. I've had to report corporate malfeasance within a corporation and they take care of it quickly and decisively once the facts are in. If you judge the Apostles to all be that corrupt.......I don't know what else to say.
I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. All it takes is one, and the others covering up. And it doesn't even have to be one of the Brethren.
They've lied before, Nehor, and covered it up. Trust is something I don't give lightly.
If there's nothing to hide, then why not open the books?
Jason Bourne wrote:I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.
I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.
And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?
Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.
To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"
Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.
Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!
Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.
Jersey Girl
I don't understand why. Can you explain?
Nehor....because you're telling me (if I am reading you correctly and I've discussed this before, so I think that I am reading you correctly) that the "books" are audited from within the church, folks are told that the "books" are sound and there is no transparent disclosure or accounting to the membership.
And you're okay with that.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you.
I'm not offended. I tend to see the Church as God's own finances and thus they fall under the realm of personal finances. No one has a right to see my finances so why should I expect to see his? If money is wasted it is only because he allowed it to happen. It could even be that that temptation is there for a reason. I don't trust people easily. I do trust God.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I'm not offended. I tend to see the Church as God's own finances and thus they fall under the realm of personal finances. No one has a right to see my finances so why should I expect to see his? If money is wasted it is only because he allowed it to happen. It could even be that that temptation is there for a reason. I don't trust people easily. I do trust God.
Oh boy. Where to start...
God is not the LDS church.
God doesn't run the LDS church; men run the LDS church and every other earthly institution.
God doesn't need money.
God doesn't have finances.
You don't give your money to God; you give your money to men. Because if God signed your tithing slip, that would definitely be worth some money!
Jason Bourne wrote:I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.
I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.
And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?
Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.
To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"
Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.
Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!
Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.
Jersey Girl
I don't understand why. Can you explain?
Nehor....because you're telling me (if I am reading you correctly and I've discussed this before, so I think that I am reading you correctly) that the "books" are audited from within the church, folks are told that the "books" are sound and there is no transparent disclosure or accounting to the membership.
And you're okay with that.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you.
I'm not offended. I tend to see the Church as God's own finances and thus they fall under the realm of personal finances. No one has a right to see my finances so why should I expect to see his? If money is wasted it is only because he allowed it to happen. It could even be that that temptation is there for a reason. I don't trust people easily. I do trust God.
Because in my mind, Nehor, YOU are charged with the stewardship of that money just as are the higher ups in the church.
Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb