The Nehor wrote:I'm not offended. I tend to see the Church as God's own finances and thus they fall under the realm of personal finances. No one has a right to see my finances so why should I expect to see his? If money is wasted it is only because he allowed it to happen. It could even be that that temptation is there for a reason. I don't trust people easily. I do trust God.
Oh boy. Where to start...
God is not the LDS church.
God doesn't run the LDS church; men run the LDS church and every other earthly institution.
God doesn't need money.
God doesn't have finances.
You don't give your money to God; you give your money to men. Because if God signed your tithing slip, that would definitely be worth some money!
No, God needs none of those things. If Christ is not the head of the Church then I'm one of the biggest suckers who ever lived. God doesn't sign it but every time I pay it or a Fast Offering he thanks me directly shortly afterwards. That's as good as a signature for me.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Jersey Girl wrote:Because in my mind, Nehor, YOU are charged with the stewardship of that money just as are the higher ups in the church.
Jersey Girl
What a novel thought. I'd never thought of it quite that way before, Jersey. You're exactly right. We all are stewards of the finances of the church, and the Brethren are keeping us from fulfilling our stewardship.
Jason Bourne wrote:I want the books open but I do not think there is malfeasence going on. There may be paranoia, maybe about the world knowing the assets of the Church, what GAs get paid or some such thing. But I doubt that there is anyone stealing or misusing funds. I know we do not know for sure but I doubt it.
I'm sure a good many of MCI's, Enron's, HealthSouth investors also doubted that anyone was stealing or misusing funds, but turns out they were wrong.
And I think it is incredibly navie to assume that just because one is "called of God," one is above temptation to which all other humans are prone. There are many, many examples of financial malfeasane by otherwise upstanding men and women, many holding position of high respect and trust, many also religious figures. Without too much trouble, one can also find examples of malfeasance by local level Mormon leaders, also called by God through inspiration. If at that level, why not higher?
Being Mormon doesn't exempt one from human weakness.
To me, an unwillingness to open the books by any organization cannot help but raise the suspicion, "what are they trying to hide?"
Mormons aren't the only group on the planet who don't commit financial fraud.
Adhere to the same ethical standards as just about every other mainline, reputable organization in the Western world. Open the damned books!
Unless you've invested in the Church and are owed a return of some kind the comparison to Enron and the rest is kinda silly.
I think there's a reason that the Church has auditors go over the books and make an announcement every year that it is sound. There's too much oversight for embezzling to take place at high levels on any large scale. The Church doesn't owe me public disclosure of what happens to the funds. When I give them funds I realize that they are no longer mine and I have no claim on them whatsoever.
This thread has shifted. It's no longer about combinations and is now about just plain secrets.
Nehor, I don't mean this as a form of personal attack, but your comments here make me feel sick inside.
Jersey Girl
I don't understand why. Can you explain?
Nehor....because you're telling me (if I am reading you correctly and I've discussed this before, so I think that I am reading you correctly) that the "books" are audited from within the church, folks are told that the "books" are sound and there is no transparent disclosure or accounting to the membership.
And you're okay with that.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you.
I'm not offended. I tend to see the Church as God's own finances and thus they fall under the realm of personal finances. No one has a right to see my finances so why should I expect to see his? If money is wasted it is only because he allowed it to happen. It could even be that that temptation is there for a reason. I don't trust people easily. I do trust God.
Because in my mind, Nehor, YOU are charged with the stewardship of that money just as are the higher ups in the church.
Jersey Girl
Not in my mind. My stewardship is the money left in my bank account.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Jersey Girl wrote:Hey, I want an answer here, Nehor. If you don't answer you're going to give me insomnia. You don't want that on your head now do you?
Why were the "books" closed?
Sorry, the answer is I don't know. Can you sleep now? :)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Jersey Girl wrote:Hey, I want an answer here, Nehor. If you don't answer you're going to give me insomnia. You don't want that on your head now do you?
Why were the "books" closed?
Sorry, the answer is I don't know. Can you sleep now? :)
No I can't and you're gonna pay for it buddy!
8-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:Hey, I want an answer here, Nehor. If you don't answer you're going to give me insomnia. You don't want that on your head now do you?
Why were the "books" closed?
Sorry, the answer is I don't know. Can you sleep now? :)
No I can't and you're gonna pay for it buddy!
8-)
Sheesh, life is rough.
I suppose now you want me to come over now and give you a bubble bath and a massage?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:The organization of those councils is not secret or sacred. The method is laid out in the D&C. I just had to ask friends who were on the High Council to find out how they work. I have never been to one though.
The doors are closed. The proceedings are not public. Even family members are not allowed in.
I said the organization is not secret. If I was called to a disciplinary council tomorrow I would know exactly what to expect.
Would you expect to be have someone who loves you unconditionally sit with you in non-judgment and support you as a child of God?