No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

[_The Nehor]

There you go Nehor, we have something in common. Let's hear it for the chronically disorganized.

I've tried planners, PDA's just about everything, but I'm simply not hard wired to be organized. Can't do it; more it stresses me out to no end even trying. I've never written from an outline, and I winged it class all the time. I'm a shoot from the hip kind of guy who manages through dint of heroic effort not to forget the really important stuff.

As for Covey, I consider him a snake oil salesmen, he and the Tony Robbins' of the world. Their real genius is marketing themselves and their feel-good recycled PMA sh**. They peddle pablum that grossly simplifies the complexity of life and badly underestimates the difficulty of human change. I'd imagine the long-term, sustainable success rate of people who abide by their programs is well below 10%.

But people want to feel good about themselves; want to believe they can change, and more importantly, want desperately to believe it's really easy after all--just follow these 7 steps--that they pony up millions of dollars for the charlatan Coveys' and Robbins' of the world.

The biggest impact of all this feel good nonsense is that Covey gets to build the biggest house in Provo on top of a hill that everyone can see and thereby proclaim to the world the fact that he's really successful and really, really rich.

While I'm disorganized I don't think he's a snake oil salesman. For some people it works well. I had a companion who was close friends with one of his children and the man lived by what he taught. He believed it because it worked for him and he lived what he taught and is a nice guy.

His plan works for some and more power to them. It won't work for me.

I'm with you on school though. I never took notes and never started a paper earlier than 2 AM the day it was due and generally got A's.

[_harmony]

The biggest impact of all this feel good nonsense is that Covey gets to build the biggest house in Provo on top of a hill that everyone can see and thereby proclaim to the world the fact that he's really successful and really, really rich.

Perhaps that is his biggest sin: he has the audacity to build a big house on top of a hill, so everyone can see how much money he has and envy him.

Big houses = woman killers. Whether it's the wife or the maid, they're still women and they have to keep it clean.

[_Jersey Girl]

Roger

Jersey Gal, I'm with Ya! Demeaning and belittling in any way is what should be MODERATED, not the use of so called swear-words/profanity... This is not the @*$f&%F*##### Victorian era! ;-) Warm regards, Roger

Damn straight, Roger. If I have to continually wade through off hand remarks about someone's alcoholism, level of education, and watching certain people be set up over and over again and then mocked because they either respond in kind or choose to disengage, they can wade through what I post. These are allegedly educated people. If that is so they can use their superior intellect to debate points, instead they throw personal s*** at people. It takes no brains at all to throw s*** at someone. How well I know! According to the latest weather report we're in for some foul weather, I hear it'll be raining f-bombs all over this board before dawn.

Your last statment, "This is not the @*$f&%F*##### Victorian era! ;-)" is just a tad bit confusing. Did you mean to say "This is not the f****** Victorian era"?

Happy editing!

Jersey Girl

[MODERATOR NOTE: No, it is not happy editing. I'd rather not have to do it. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.]

What a snippy remark! What do you mean by "thanks in advance" for my "cooperation?" First, I contacted you and reported my own use of profanity to you. I told you what the words were and where they were located. I also apologized to you. Not that I expect you to follow all the threads on this board, my use of profanity was a form of protest. And your response above seems rather snippy. Might I suggest that you avail yourself of the search feature on this board and search just on the word "sh*t" alone and see how many hits you get here in the Terrestrial that have been left to stand? I reported myself because I thought you could edit them out by word, apparently that is not so given the amount of profanity that appears when one uses the search to find them.

[_KimberlyAnn]

There you go Nehor, we have something in common. Let's hear it for the chronically disorganized.

I am also chronically disorganized. I keep a clean house, but can't keep a calendar. For some reason I thrive on last minute pressure, and like Nehor, never started my college papers until a few days before they were due. Unlike Nehor, I didn't almost always get "A's"- I always got A's. :P

Now, back on topic. I'm not suited for intellectual discourse and have very little intellectual discipline. I have only a lowly bachelor's degree and in history at that. I'm sure the reason I got A's is because I went to a state college and had easy professors. That's what someone told me over on RfM when we were engaged in a debate. So, Coggins, you're really in a no-win situation. If you don't have a degree, you've no intellectual discipline. If you do have a degree, the person with whom you're debating will determine that your degree isn't good enough or your college wasn't prestigious enough to merit their consideration. Lucky for you you're not a cupcake with big boobs. No matter how intelligent you may be, if you're a woman with big boobs very little of what you say is ever taken seriously by some people. So count your blessings.

KA

[_Coggins7]

As for Covey, I consider him a snake oil salesmen, he and the Tony Robbins' of the world. Their real genius is marketing themselves and their feel-good recycled PMA sh**. They peddle pablum that grossly simplifies the complexity of life and badly underestimates the difficulty of human change. I'd imagine the long-term, sustainable success rate of people who abide by their programs is well below 10%.

I have mixed feelings about this. I've herd nothing about Covey ever that would lead me to believe he would ever sell "snake oil", or that he is anything but a man of character and principle. Where I do agree with Guy is his assessment of the self help culture as a whole, and Robbns is the textbook example of this. Robbins sells self esteem and self affirmation. What he cannot do is make that stick once the seminar is over and real life begins again. Just go to sleep, listen to the subliminal messages on this cassette tape, and when you wake up the next morning, presto! your addiction to nicotine is gone, your marital problems are solved, your memory is better etc. Absolute pseudo-scientific pap.

I do think the idea about reprogramming the subconscious probably has merit, but I don't believe it can be done as easily and passively as Robbins claims.


Harmony said:

Perhaps that is his biggest sin: he has the audacity to build a big house on top of a hill, so everyone can see how much money he has and envy him.

Its nice to know that Harmony can see into Covey's mind and heart and know without question just why he does this or that. My, its gotten green in here recently hasn't it? As anyone who has studied Psychology will know, the above is called "projection".

[_guy sajer]

As for Covey, I consider him a snake oil salesmen, he and the Tony Robbins' of the world. Their real genius is marketing themselves and their feel-good recycled PMA sh**. They peddle pablum that grossly simplifies the complexity of life and badly underestimates the difficulty of human change. I'd imagine the long-term, sustainable success rate of people who abide by their programs is well below 10%.

I have mixed feelings about this. I've herd nothing about Covey ever that would lead me to believe he would ever sell "snake oil", or that he is anything but a man of character and principle. Where I do agree with Guy is his assessment of the self help culture as a whole, and Robbns is the textbook example of this. Robbins sells self esteem and self affirmation. What he cannot do is make that stick once the seminar is over and real life begins again. Just go to sleep, listen to the subliminal messages on this cassette tape, and when you wake up the next morning, presto! your addiction to nicotine is gone, your marital problems are solved, your memory is better etc. Absolute pseudo-scientific pap.

I do think the idea about reprogramming the subconscious probably has merit, but I don't believe it can be done as easily and passively as Robbins claims.

I should clarify. I agree that I don't think Covery is a snakeoil salesmen, meaning that he is somehow deceitful or fraudulent. I have no reason to believe that he is anything but an honorable man. Thanks for helping me to clarify that.

It is the product he is selling--the 7 easy steps bullsh**, mass produced, one-size fits all nostrums that is the snakeoil. I think Covey probably believes in it, but I am highly skeptical it produces sustainable results in many people. Certainly, a few will benefit long term, but I suspect they will be the exceptions. Personal change is damned hard, and it requires sustained, conscious, difficult effort. No 7 steps will easily do it, nor will some 4 hour seminar.

I am less convinced, however, that Robbins is all that honorable. He comes across to me as positively slimey, with that smoothe operator, con-man aura.

[_harmony]

Its nice to know that Harmony can see into Covey's mind and heart and know without question just why he does this or that. My, its gotten green in here recently hasn't it? As anyone who has studied Psychology will know, the above is called "projection".

I was being facetious, Loran. I realize you are unable to determine that, but still... surely you could figure it out from my next paragraph.

Personally, I don't care where his house is or how big it is. I realize that I'm one of the few women on earth who does not want a big house. A big house to me just means more work. You may read into my words whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you can read my intent.

[_Coggins7]

Personally, I don't care where his house is or how big it is. I realize that I'm one of the few women on earth who does not want a big house. A big house to me just means more work. You may read into my words whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you can read my intent.

Oh yes, I see. I do know how you feel about housework.

[_The Nehor]

The biggest impact of all this feel good nonsense is that Covey gets to build the biggest house in Provo on top of a hill that everyone can see and thereby proclaim to the world the fact that he's really successful and really, really rich.

Perhaps that is his biggest sin: he has the audacity to build a big house on top of a hill, so everyone can see how much money he has and envy him.

Big houses = woman killers. Whether it's the wife or the maid, they're still women and they have to keep it clean.

What if he had a male housecleaner? :)

[_harmony]

What if he had a male housecleaner? :)

Then he would indeed be unique.