The Prophet Boasts

[_The Nehor]

There is no doctrine of Apostasy within the LDS Church. It is assumed to have happened because there otherwise there was no need for a Restoration.

I'm saying this so that I'm clear that the Church has no official declaration as to when they were lost. The most common explanation I've heard is that Linus was not Peter's successor and that the Presidency of the Church should have passed to John instead who was still alive. This is the most common LDS response.

[_Jersey Girl]

There is no doctrine of Apostasy within the LDS Church. It is assumed to have happened because there otherwise there was no need for a Restoration.

I'm saying this so that I'm clear that the Church has no official declaration as to when they were lost. The most common explanation I've heard is that Linus was not Peter's successor and that the Presidency of the Church should have passed to John instead who was still alive. This is the most common LDS response.

No doctrine of apostasy? Stop it, Nehor.

[_Gazelam]

Some evidences of the Apostacy that are easy to notice are to be found in the ordinances. For instance:

(1) Baptism- This is the best known and easiest to see. As instituted by the Savior, and as practiced most notably by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4), This is a practice always performed by the church. It is a contract between Man and God to take upon themselves the name of Christ and strive to live up to the name. It is laying down the old self and being born again. This burial is symbolized in baptism by full immersion.
Baptism was administered quickly upon statement of faith and evidence of repentence by the hands of one that was duly authorized (John 15:15-16). There was no delay in administering the ordinance after the eligibility was shown. (Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:26-39, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 16:31-33)
By the second century baptisms were only performed twice a year. One occasion was easter, and the other was Whitsuntide, the annivery of the day of pentecost. These were performed after a long and tedious coarse of preparaton where the candidate was refered to as a Catechumen, or novice in training. According to some accounts this could take up to three years, unless there was an exceptional case. Some additions that went on were the treating of the candidat eas a child, feeding them milk and honey, pouring oil over them, performing exorcisms, adorning them with crowns and white robes.
During the first half of the third century a rdical change was executed. The first instance on record is that of Novatus, a heretic who requested baptism on his death bed. he being deemed to sick to be baptised by immersion was instead sprinkled. This was advocated by Cyprian, the learned Bishop of Carthage. Add to this the practice of the need of Baptism of infants, which went hand in hand with the doctrine that if an infant died without baptism it was damned to hell. Such a doctrine is foreign to the gospel and to the Church of Christ, and its adoption is an essential tenet as proof of the Apostacy.

(2) The Sacrament- The partaking of the bread and water in remembrance of Christ was instituted by the Savior himself. The bread in remembrance of his body and the gift of the ressurection and the victory over physical death. The water or wine to remember the shedding of his blood and the victory over the second death, or spiritual death due to sin and rebellion. The partaking of these emblems in faith was equal to being rebaptised and washing away your sins anew.
To the pagans and philosophers that overtook the church the simplicity of this ordinance was seen as a reproach compared to their old elaborate celebrations in their old religions. The prayers became longer and more elaborate, the vessels went from simple cups and plates to gold and silver trays and goblets. And the service's became ostentatious displays. Dissentions arose as to when the services could be performed, and those deemed unworthy were kept out; in imitation of the heathen mysteries once found in the pagan churchs.
At a later date the doctrine of transubstantiation was introduced. This belief that the tokens of the sacrament became the literal blood and flesh of Christ after consumption, through mystical means, became orthodox in 1215, but was taught and in practice as early as the ninth century.
This monstrous doctrine was followed by the emblems themselves being seen as divine, "...a very pernicious practice of idolatry was connected with the reception of this doctrine. Men fell down before the consecrated host, and worshipped it as God; and the novelty, absurdity, and impiety of this abomination very much struck the minds of all men who were not dead to a sence of true religion" (Mosheim, "Eccl. Hist.," Cent. XIII, part II, ch. 3:2)

With this example, it is clear that the Holy Ghost no longer dwelt in the corrupt vessel the Church had become by this time. if the authority of God no longer dwelt here, or in the Jewish faith, Then mankind would need to pray fro a restoration to occur at some future time.

[_Gazelam]

In second Timothy Pauls states that the church in Asia had already collapsed (2 Tim 1:13-15) By around 96 AD the church had fragmented to the point that only seven churchs remained for John to send his revelation to (Rev. 2:4-5, 12-16, 3:14-21)
Hegesippus, who was alive at the time, states "the church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt vircgin; while if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats; but when the sacred choir of apostles became extinct, and the generation of those privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combinations of impious error arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the apostles left, henceforth attempted, without shame to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth." (Eusebius, "Ecclesiastical history" Book III, chapter 32")
I listed two signs of the churchs straying from plain and simple doctrine due to the input of the philosophers and pagans. Other doctrines obviously corrupted include"

(1) The Doctrine of God the Father being our actual Father in Heaven.

(2) That Jesus Christ is his Son, and like his Father has a body of Flesh and Bone, and sits at his Fathers right hand, as our intercesor with the Father in recieveing intruction from him

(3) That the Holy Ghost is a God also, and not simply a force emanateing from God, and acts as a testifyer of divine truth and knowledge.

(4) That revelation is available to all of Gods children.

(5) The role of prophets and apostles, their function and purpose.

(6) The purpose and function of Temples and the saving ordinances administered there.

(7) The divine purpose of marrige.

(8 The understanding of the ressurection, and the understanding that we will all be ressurected, and the divine nature of the body.

(9) The understanding of the pre-existance and the grand council of heaven, including the understanding of how Lucifer came to be the devil and how and why he fell.

(10) The understanding of the Fall of Adam, why he fell, and what it means to us.



These are just a few off the top of my head. The Apostacy was global, and the authority of the priesthood, and the knoledge that came with it were removed from the earth due to mankind rejecting the gospel in favor of their own philosophies. "For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his rightiousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own God...." (D&C 1:15-16) In just the First Vision alone many of the herisies perpetrated by false priests over the years were dashed back to the pit they came from. Standing before the first prophet of our time were the Father and the Son, standing side by side, speaking with one of their children, and instructing him in the appropriate manner of worship, and how to grow closer to them. Soon after, authority was restored, as well as the proper modes of ordinances and how they are to be recieved.
There is no salvation in a lie. Truth stands revealed through revelation and through the ministering of Gods ordained prophets, or he remains unknown.

[_The Nehor]

There is no doctrine of Apostasy within the LDS Church. It is assumed to have happened because there otherwise there was no need for a Restoration.

I'm saying this so that I'm clear that the Church has no official declaration as to when they were lost. The most common explanation I've heard is that Linus was not Peter's successor and that the Presidency of the Church should have passed to John instead who was still alive. This is the most common LDS response.

No doctrine of apostasy? Stop it, Nehor.

It's accepted that it happened. We just don't have a doctrine as to when and how and what caused it. I've heard dates thrown out by many members and we just don't know. We don't have any official teaching on the Apostasy.

[_Jersey Girl]

It's accepted that it happened. We just don't have a doctrine as to when and how and what caused it. I've heard dates thrown out by many members and we just don't know. We don't have any official teaching on the Apostasy.

You don't have any official teaching on the Apostasy?

STOP IT, Nehor.

[_The Nehor]

You don't have any official teaching on the Apostasy?

STOP IT, Nehor.

I'm confused......do you know of any official teaching on it? Joseph Smith almost never mentioned it at all. Others have tried to explain it but not in an established way. Orson Pratt talked about it but he was wrong on most of it.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Some evidences of the Apostacy that are easy to notice are to be found in the ordinances. For instance:

(1) Baptism- This is the best known and easiest to see. As instituted by the Savior, and as practiced most notably by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4), This is a practice always performed by the church. It is a contract between Man and God to take upon themselves the name of Christ and strive to live up to the name. It is laying down the old self and being born again. This burial is symbolized in baptism by full immersion.
Baptism was administered quickly upon statement of faith and evidence of repentence by the hands of one that was duly authorized (John 15:15-16). There was no delay in administering the ordinance after the eligibility was shown. (Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:26-39, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 16:31-33)
By the second century baptisms were only performed twice a year. One occasion was easter, and the other was Whitsuntide, the annivery of the day of pentecost. These were performed after a long and tedious coarse of preparaton where the candidate was refered to as a Catechumen, or novice in training. According to some accounts this could take up to three years, unless there was an exceptional case. Some additions that went on were the treating of the candidat eas a child, feeding them milk and honey, pouring oil over them, performing exorcisms, adorning them with crowns and white robes.
During the first half of the third century a rdical change was executed. The first instance on record is that of Novatus, a heretic who requested baptism on his death bed. he being deemed to sick to be baptised by immersion was instead sprinkled. This was advocated by Cyprian, the learned Bishop of Carthage. Add to this the practice of the need of Baptism of infants, which went hand in hand with the doctrine that if an infant died without baptism it was damned to hell. Such a doctrine is foreign to the gospel and to the Church of Christ, and its adoption is an essential tenet as proof of the Apostacy.

(Putting on my appologist hat) **Sigh** Not this old piece of anti-Catholic garbage. Baptism in Catholicism has never changed. The Catholic changes in baptism are simple changes in procedure but the result is the same. The minor change from immersion to sprinkling do not invalidate the baptism. Nothing has changed with regard to baptism from 33 AD until now. Most importantly, the church has the authority to make these changes through the direction of God. Why do you choose to rebel against the Lord's anointed? Why are you steadying the ark?

(2) The Sacrament- The partaking of the bread and water in remembrance of Christ was instituted by the Savior himself. The bread in remembrance of his body and the gift of the ressurection and the victory over physical death. The water or wine to remember the shedding of his blood and the victory over the second death, or spiritual death due to sin and rebellion. The partaking of these emblems in faith was equal to being rebaptised and washing away your sins anew.
To the pagans and philosophers that overtook the church the simplicity of this ordinance was seen as a reproach compared to their old elaborate celebrations in their old religions. The prayers became longer and more elaborate, the vessels went from simple cups and plates to gold and silver trays and goblets. And the service's became ostentatious displays. Dissentions arose as to when the services could be performed, and those deemed unworthy were kept out; in imitation of the heathen mysteries once found in the pagan churchs.
At a later date the doctrine of transubstantiation was introduced. This belief that the tokens of the sacrament became the literal blood and flesh of Christ after consumption, through mystical means, became orthodox in 1215, but was taught and in practice as early as the ninth century.
This monstrous doctrine was followed by the emblems themselves being seen as divine, "...a very pernicious practice of idolatry was connected with the reception of this doctrine. Men fell down before the consecrated host, and worshipped it as God; and the novelty, absurdity, and impiety of this abomination very much struck the minds of all men who were not dead to a sence of true religion" (Mosheim, "Eccl. Hist.," Cent. XIII, part II, ch. 3:2)

With this example, it is clear that the Holy Ghost no longer dwelt in the corrupt vessel the Church had become by this time. if the authority of God no longer dwelt here, or in the Jewish faith, Then mankind would need to pray fro a restoration to occur at some future time.

Once again you feel you know better than the church leaders. Why the rebeliiousness. Obedience is the first law of heaven. Through the power of continnuing revelation, the doctrine of transubstantiation was introduced. What a blessing to the members of Christ's church. If you disagree with this doctrine, you are free not to be a member of the church, but don't offend those who choose to follow Christ's church with your anti-Catholic crap.

[_Jason Bourne]

What authority?

Jersey Girl

Lemme spell it out for ya ;)

A P O S T O L I C Authority.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

I believe I explained this above at least from the LDS view. LDS believe Apostolic authority is priesthood, the right to act in God's name, receive revelation to guide the Church, and to administer ordinances that LDS believe are necessarey for salvation. LDS believe that this priesthood was lost and not passed on with the death of the apostles later to be restored through Joseph Smith.

Clear on this now?

What were the signs that the priesthood was lost?

It really only matters if you want to debate whether it occured. I am just clarifying the LDS view. I have no interest in debating whether that view is accurate.

Don't you think there was an apostasy of sorts? If not why aren't you Catholoc?

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason

It really only matters if you want to debate whether it occured. I am just clarifying the LDS view. I have no interest in debating whether that view is accurate.

In creating this thread, I have not invited anyone to debate the apostasy, Jason. What I've done, if you read my posts here, is open the topic up for inquiry. Thus, the many questions I've posed.

Don't you think there was an apostasy of sorts? If not why aren't you Catholoc?

I think you're referring to the Restoration? I'm not Catholic because I wasn't raised Catholic. I was raised Protestant and currently am a non-participant in organized religion.