Apostasy and authority

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi Seven,

I've had some pretty rousing debates on this subject with Tom Nossor and David Waltz. My debate with the latter was unfortunately abortive because I went to the Philippines and forgot to take it back up again when I got back. Here are some possible links to look at:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 15830&st=0
http://www.christianforums.com/t1173728
http://www.christianforums.com/t1158073

I have penned a lengthy article on this subject that I could PM you. I prefer not to post it publicly, because after some expansion and additional footnoting it's possible that I will seek publication. But here are some of the conclusions:

- "The current understanding among secular scholars is that the Christian church began as a charismatic, loosely organized movement, and only gradually developed offices and institutions like the priesthood."
- "'Apostle', too, is thought to be a term that loosely designated charismatic ministers who had been sent by God, rather than denoting a specific church office."
- "episkopos (rendered “bishop” in the KJV) and presbuteros (sometimes rendered “presbyter”)—non-technical Greek terms meaning “overseer” and “elder”—did not originally denote two distinct offices.... It would seem that Christian churches were originally governed by a council of elders and that only gradually did there come to be one of the elders who had primacy over the others."
- Ordination in the New Testament is non-technical and does not denote an official ordination ceremony.
- Barry Bickmore's fifth chapter (on priesthood) in his book Restoring the Ancient Church gets just about everything wrong, quotes out of context, and even cites a spurious, late-date epistle attributed to Ignatius.
- Priesthood first appears in the third century and even then we are explicitly informed by Origen that there are no priests after the order of Melchizedek.

-CK

[_Seven]

Thanks CaliforniaKid! I would love to read your article. I will check out the links you posted. :)

[_CaliforniaKid]

if you PM me your email, I'll send it to you.

[_Gazelam]

Authority of a believer is ludicrous. Gods house is a house of order, not confusion. Whose faith should we trust to baptise us? The Catholics? The Roman Catholics? The Lutherans? The Baptists? The Jehovahs witness's? Which preaching of God should we follow? Who has the authority to seal upon us the name of Christ through the waters of baptism?

There are numerous accounts of priesthood authority, such as Christs declaration that the Twelve were specificly chosen and ordained (John 15:16), Saul and Barnabas were seperated and had hands laid on their heads to give them authority(Acts 13:1-3; Romas 1:1) Paul also reminds Timothy of the responsibility of the authority given to him by the laying on of hands (1 Tim. 4:14)

This is what is known as the priesthood, and these are just a few examples.

As pertaining to man's existence on this earth, priesthood is the power and authority of God delegated to man on earth to act in all things for the salvation of men. It is the power by which the gospel is preached; by which the ordinances of salvation are performed so that they will be binding on earth and in heaven; by which men are sealed up unto eternal life, being asured of the fulness of the Father's kingdom hereafter; and by which in due cource the Lord will govern the nations of the earth and all that pertans to them. (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 136-200)

[_CaliforniaKid]

Authority of a believer is ludicrous. Gods house is a house of order, not confusion.

What's ludicrous is the kind of spiritual imperialism that leads one church to claim to be the sole, exclusive repository of God's authority on earth.

As for ordination, I'd be happy to send you a copy of my paper, as well.

[_richardMdBorn]

Authority of a believer is ludicrous. Gods house is a house of order, not confusion.

Yes, there is no confusion in LDS land. What's doctrine and what's not? Did God the Father have a father? Which pronouncements of GBH are from God. Is the Adam God doctrine correct....

Richard

[_Polygamy Porter]

Authority of a believer is ludicrous. Gods house is a house of order, not confusion. Whose faith should we trust to baptise us? The Catholics? The Roman Catholics? The Lutherans? The Baptists? The Jehovahs witness's? Which preaching of God should we follow? Who has the authority to seal upon us the name of Christ through the waters of baptism?

Guess what Gizzie? You base your knowledge on the supposed word of Mormon men. How can we take their word? Cuz you prayed about it and got a friggin boner? Give me a break.

Ferchrissakes, Joey did not report the wondrous event until 12 YEARS LATER in 1842.. FURTHER he never gave an exact DATE for this earth shaking event! The official statement from LDS Inc was it either occured in May or June of 1829... However, they do have an EXACT date for the supposed restoration of the LESSER priesthood, Aaronic.

Sounds a lot like other CORE DOCTRINES doesn't it? Like his supposed first vision.


Bottom line is the Mormon membership is comprised of deceivers and the deceived, a bunch of morons either way.

[_Gazelam]

Authority of a believer is ludicrous. Gods house is a house of order, not confusion.

Yes, there is no confusion in LDS land. What's doctrine and what's not? Did God the Father have a father? Which pronouncements of GBH are from God. Is the Adam God doctrine correct....

Richard

Please pick a doctrine you are having trouble with and I'd be happy to explain it to you.

[_Gazelam]

Get it boy, get it!

[_richardMdBorn]

Gaz Please pick a doctrine you are having trouble with and I'd be happy to explain it to you.

It's not a matter of explanation. Do LDS believe that God the Father had a father?