ALL OR NOTHING.. And that third choice - peace

[_Inconceivable]

After discovering for myself a portion of the unspoken fiction that has destroyed much of the faithful history of Mormonism, I have found it difficult to trust much of the feelings I have grown accustomed to over my lifetime.

I held fast to the doctrine that either the church was true or all of it's claims were entirely a fraud. I suppose that because I believed that it was either all or nothing, all of the spiritual experiences I witnessed through out my life I chalked up as clues to it's authenticity.

As I reflect back on all the many "witnesses" I have received confirming faithful history that were blatantly false, I feel even a greater sense of betrayal - and anger.

I've felt physically sick, lost much sleep (and still do), begun to hate much of what I used to enjoy. I am finding that I view the church as a congregation of deceived and deceivers (as the angry P.Porter states).

I certainly have little peace and the spiritual clues have ceased.

Inspite of the fact that I think I'm lost, somehow I must be better off with the dilema I now face than what I didn't know as a TBM.

I can see why there are those that are now atheists - perhaps because some have yet to reject the doctrine of ALL or Nothing.

I am looking for the third choice - I am hoping that perhaps there are certain principles that are eternal.

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

[_Polygamy Porter]

After discovering for myself a portion of the unspoken fiction that has destroyed much of the faithful history of Mormonism, I have found it difficult to trust much of the feelings I have grown accustomed to over my lifetime.

I held fast to the doctrine that either the church was true or all of it's claims were entirely a fraud. I suppose that because I believed that it was either all or nothing, all of the spiritual experiences I witnessed through out my life I chalked up as clues to it's authenticity.

As I reflect back on all the many "witnesses" I have received confirming faithful history that were blatantly false, I feel even a greater sense of betrayal - and anger.

I've felt physically sick, lost much sleep (and still do), begun to hate much of what I used to enjoy. I am finding that I view the church as a congregation of deceived and deceivers (as the angry P.Porter states).

I certainly have little peace and the spiritual clues have ceased.

Inspite of the fact that I think I'm lost, somehow I must be better off with the dilema I now face than what I didn't know as a TBM.

I can see why there are those that are now atheists - perhaps because some have yet to reject the doctrine of ALL or Nothing.

I am looking for the third choice - I am hoping that perhaps there are certain principles that are eternal.

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

What brings me peace is [making people mad] on this board.

Seriously, just give it some time. What I enjoy is all of the new uncertainties of life. Being able to question anything. I also enjoy being with my wife and kids and the certainty that they are with me now as we all enjoy each other.

Life is a one time roller coaster ride. Enjoy it, revel in it, keep your eyes open the entire time. don't spend the entire ride worrying about the exit or you will miss the entire experience.

[_The Nehor]

After discovering for myself a portion of the unspoken fiction that has destroyed much of the faithful history of Mormonism, I have found it difficult to trust much of the feelings I have grown accustomed to over my lifetime.

I held fast to the doctrine that either the church was true or all of it's claims were entirely a fraud. I suppose that because I believed that it was either all or nothing, all of the spiritual experiences I witnessed through out my life I chalked up as clues to it's authenticity.

As I reflect back on all the many "witnesses" I have received confirming faithful history that were blatantly false, I feel even a greater sense of betrayal - and anger.

I've felt physically sick, lost much sleep (and still do), begun to hate much of what I used to enjoy. I am finding that I view the church as a congregation of deceived and deceivers (as the angry P.Porter states).

I certainly have little peace and the spiritual clues have ceased.

Inspite of the fact that I think I'm lost, somehow I must be better off with the dilema I now face than what I didn't know as a TBM.

I can see why there are those that are now atheists - perhaps because some have yet to reject the doctrine of ALL or Nothing.

I am looking for the third choice - I am hoping that perhaps there are certain principles that are eternal.

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

Separate the Gospel from the Church.

An emotional reaction to an emotional story is normal. Some movies and books can still make me tear up and inspire me with incorrectness.

Focus more on God. Focus more on prayer and times where there is no leading emotional state and I think you'll find the difference between the Spirit and Emotion. The former is often accompanied by the latter, but the latter can exist on it's own just fine.

[_moksha]

Perhaps you could consider these steps in coming to terms with any disillusionment:

• Denial and isolation: Here you deny any contradictory information and try to isolate yourself from anything that does not seem approved.

• Anger: "How dare those vile atheists, ex-mormons and devil spawn torment me with this information."

• Bargaining: "Just let me get confirmation that this is true."

• Depression: "It saddens me to learn otherwise."

• Acceptance: "Maybe I had an immature understanding of God and the Universe by needing to have everything wrapped up in a neat little 'of so true' package and that if I choose to remain a member, I can start to look for positive reasons through a realistic perspective and determine my own belief structure."


(with apologies to Elizabeth Kubler-Ross for bastardizing her stages).

[_Seven]

I relate to so much of what you are going through. I don't know if I went through a real "angry" stage, but I was physically sick with betrayal (similar to a cheating spouse but far more painful and scary) and a feeling of being trapped in the church by the culture. I cried for a month and couldn't sleep. It consumed me to read about Joseph Smith's polygamous activities. I don't think I smiled or felt happiness until I let it all go and stopped trying to force myself in believing something that felt wrong.

I had an all or nothing kind of tesimony of God and Jesus. If the Mormon church wasn't true, then I believed I would become either agnostic or atheist. I agree wtih you that the many former LDS become atheist because of that all or nothing testimony we have in the church. I have had several TBMs tell me that the church has to be true because if it's not then nothing is.

It does get better. The pain will pass and you will find life a little scary without the perfect life plan and all the answers for the after life, but it is possible to have a relationship with God outside of Mormonism. This whole experience could draw you closer to God/Christ as it has started to do with me. I am less judgemental, more able to focus on charity work that I am drawn to, more open minded and respectful of others beliefs, and overall a feeling of weight has been lifted.

I am not saying you have to go inactive like I did to have these things. Some people are able to remain active in church and focus on Christ, while leaving the rest at the door. (Harmony is a great example) At this time in my life I am not able to. Maybe I will be drawn back to activity when I feel and see the general membership and church leadership shares my values and moral beliefs but at this time they don't.

One thing my TBM DH said to me which has been very helpful is to focus on Jesus and nothing else. Leave Mormonism out of it and rebuild my relationship with Christ. My father also gave that advice and he's a former member who has a very strong testimony of our Savior. Another thing that has helped is to watch the members who leave the FLDS church struggle with the exact same thing. That feeling of loss is overwhelming and scary. I visited a recovery board for Jehova Witnesses and they go through this too.

So this is where I am at right now. Start over and focus on serving others, which will bring you peace and draw you closer to God. When you serve others, you do it in His name. I love the scripture that goes something like "it is after the trial of your faith that you will have your witness." I have been looking at other faiths and trying to find a place I can fellowship with those who share my values and can bring me closer to my Savior Jesus Christ. Who knows, maybe it will bring me back to the LDS church one day but right now it isn't a healthy environment.

[_Bond...James Bond]

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

This question really hits close to home since losing faith in Papa Bear in the Sky has sorta thrown me for a loop.

Frankly what I've come up with is that few things bring peace to a troubled soul. But here are a few things I've figured out in the last little bit:

1) The only thing I'm really sure about is that I'm not sure about anything (with the following exceptions):
A) I love my friends and family
B) I can't change the world, but I can change myself (so that's what I try to do)
C) I try to enjoy life as much as possible (cause we don't know what's in the here after)

2) Personally I've found that living in the moment is becoming a much better way to live rather than making too many plans and goals for the distant future (of course I'm rather young so this is probably more relevant to people like myself than people in middle age, but try to have fun with life)

3) If in doubt, rock out (that's right....pick your favorite tunes and crank them up or do whatever you want that makes you happy. (If you can't figure out the meaning of the Universe, try to figure out why The Skipper and Gulligan only have one change of clothes while the Howells and the Gals had a whole wardrobe along on a three hour tour)

4) Yeah I'm joking a bit here but I've come to the realization that most of life happens while we're stumbling around trying to do something completely different than what we end up doing....and to remember to keep our eyes open and enjoy the ride.

Alright, who thinks Bond was on an Acid Trip when he wrote this post?

[_mentalgymnast]

After discovering for myself a portion of the unspoken fiction that has destroyed much of the faithful history of Mormonism, I have found it difficult to trust much of the feelings I have grown accustomed to over my lifetime.

I held fast to the doctrine that either the church was true or all of it's claims were entirely a fraud. I suppose that because I believed that it was either all or nothing, all of the spiritual experiences I witnessed through out my life I chalked up as clues to it's authenticity.

As I reflect back on all the many "witnesses" I have received confirming faithful history that were blatantly false, I feel even a greater sense of betrayal - and anger.

I've felt physically sick, lost much sleep (and still do), begun to hate much of what I used to enjoy. I am finding that I view the church as a congregation of deceived and deceivers (as the angry P.Porter states).

I certainly have little peace and the spiritual clues have ceased.

Inspite of the fact that I think I'm lost, somehow I must be better off with the dilema I now face than what I didn't know as a TBM.

I can see why there are those that are now atheists - perhaps because some have yet to reject the doctrine of ALL or Nothing.

I am looking for the third choice - I am hoping that perhaps there are certain principles that are eternal.

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

MG: here is how I see it. Anything of worth over the long haul is going to take work. Literal and/or figurative sweat and tears. That which is of greater worth will typically be preceded by more opportunities to muddle through a wider range of experiences/situations which will involve sweat and tears, again literally or figuratively. Same with happiness. Happiness can be found along a spectrum. That happiness which is eternal/secure requires a greater degree of nurturing, work, sweat, and a few tears along the way.

Sacrifice is part of the mix too.

Graduating beyond the primary/seminary version of Mormonism, and yet remaining active, provides opportunities to experience hardships, learnings, progressions, sweat and tears, happinesses, insights, etc. that can't be found/tapped without going through it. Those that leave the church behind, physically and/or mentally-spiritually without moving beyond the primary/seminary days mentality/paradigm are bound for some frustrations, disappointments, and possible disillusionment as they come to find that there is more to assimilate (new Mormon history, science and religion, church institutional issues, revelatory conundrums...and on and on) than they ever thought in their wildest dreams that they would have to. To find that truth is not wrapped up in one little tidy package (LDS'ism TM) with a bow on top (In other words's that the world is a much bigger place than just Mormonism) can be somewhat disconcerting to those that may have believed this to be the case.

For me, peace is knowing that I don't have to have all the answers...that in fact I can have more questions than answers, and still remain an active member of the church. Peace, knowing that when all is said and done it is not unreasonable to believe in God. That it is not unreasonable that God has a plan/purpose for all of his creations. That it is not unreasonable to think that we are children of a loving Father. That it is not unreasonable to think that the LDS church/gospel of Jesus Christ plays an integral and important part in God's plan for the eternal welfare/happiness of at least a portion of his children, if not all. That it is not unreasonable to consider the fact that life gets messy in and out of the church because of the agency/nature of man and that this fact needs to be factored into everything that we experience in and out of the church. That it is not unreasonable to consider the possibility of life after life, and that this life is in some way a preparation...at least for some...for that future existence. That it is not unreasonable to excercise faith in that which is not seen but in which to some degree there are some indicators/evidences that this faith may not be misplaced.

The PP's, Scratch's, Bond's, Shades of this board have issues because they have not been able to move beyond a primary/seminary outlook towards the world and the church. They will say they have, but I honestly don't believe this to be the case. They are black/white thinkers...if you can call it thinking. They grew up literally thinking that all the thinking that ever had to be thunk had been done by someone other than themselves. They are very simplistic and naïve in their outlook towards what and who God is and how he may or may not operate in the universe. If he doesn't conform to their image, then he doesn't exist. They are ready and happy to jump on the secular bandwagon without the least provocation. They will say otherwise and call those such as myself a fool for even alluding to the possibility that this may be the case, but nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that they are the ones that have been duped and deluded into thinking "inside the box" of skepticism and doubt, to the exclusion of other possibilities.

To find out that Mormonism was not simply what they larned in primary/seminary and reading the New Era or Ensign threw them for a loop from which they never were able to extricate themselves and recover. Thus, we find them and others like them supposedly "recovering" over at the RFM board or here.

I go back to my first two paragraphs. I think it is not unreasonable to consider that what I've said there makes sense and may well even be true. If you are truly looking for peace rather than being forced to adhere only to the mushy, new age, rather simplistic formula that Bond put forward in his post (even if he was on acid...he he he), you may want to consider the possibility that truth is to be found within the LDS church.

Best wishes,
MG

[_Inconceivable]

MG: here is how I see it...

Clear as mud.

It's amazing how you can speak of a rock solid LDS belief that brings you peace without having given the slightest hint that you have a grasp of the concept of what makes a person see as they are seen.

I read and ponder and am astonished that so much of what I considered sweet and sacred is yet hidden in plain view to many that profess the LDS belief system.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG: here is how I see it...

Clear as mud.

MG: well thanks! Well, where do we go from here...

Made sense to me. I suppose that if I'm not making sense to anyone else, I ought to consider leaving the teaching profession after twenty-five years of spouting off stuff that's "clear as mud"!

It's amazing how you can speak of a rock solid LDS belief that brings you peace without having given the slightest hint that you have a grasp of the concept of what makes a person see as they are seen.

MG: huh? Talk about clear as mud. What are you really saying here? Anything?

you:
"slightest hint that you have a grasp of the concept of what makes a person see as they are seen."

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Was I supposed to be giving "a slightest hint" in regards to a particular point that you wanted me to give a slightest hint too? I'm not a mind reader. <g>

I read and ponder and am astonished that so much of what I considered sweet and sacred is yet hidden in plain view to many that profess the LDS belief system.

MG: again, huh? What are you really saying here?

you:
"so much of what I considered sweet and sacred is yet hidden in plain view"

Could you elaborate on this?

To be honest, I'm still trying to fathom how everything I said could be "clear as mud". Replying by using a short/curt response (clear as mud) wasn't simply an evasive action on your part to avoid responding with any substantive thinking was it? Your response, to be honest, is really fuzzy, and seems to me to be "clear as mud".

Maybe we're just not on the same planet. <smile>

Oh well,
Have a nice day.

MG

[_Inconceivable]

Mentalgymnist,

I am speaking of the principle of becoming like Christ. There is a scripture in the Book of Mormon that I am sure you are familiar. It describes how God quantifies your true value to him and to His children. It also makes very clear the only way anyone is capable of recognizing Christ for Who He truly is. How can a Mormon say they have Mormon peace without stating their awareness of and are not consciously developing this love?

These are some of the sweet and sacred concepts that I speak of that are hidden in plain view.

(For those that aren't familiar, it's found in Moroni 7, Ether 12 and 1 Corinthians 13)


As I have written previously, at present I am unsure about a great many things.