DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

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_Dan Vogel
_Emeritus
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Uncle Dale wrote:You say you've got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We are doing what we can -- (John Lennon)

By the way, Dan, the 1832 Samuel H. Smith item is here:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NE ... htm#081032

If you backtrack a little on the same web-page, you'll find a less useful item
in that same newspaper, re Orson Pratt and Lyman E. Johnson.

An enjoyable hobby, I think --- then again, I admittedly have weird tastes.

Dale in Hawaii


Life is what happens while we are making other plans. (John Lennon)

Nice source. Note typo of "sporit" for "spirit."
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Dan: I think you missed the point here. The designation of pseudohallucination has nothing to do with whether or not the hallucinator believes in ghosts, for example, but whether or not the subject knows that what is being experienced is not ordinary. When Asaad says "the person may not be able to make a critical judgment concerning the unreality of the perception, but in a few moments, that distinction becomes clear," he means that the apparition might at first seem real because the person is unaware that they are hallucinating and takes the hallucination as part of ordinary experience. That realization doesn't mean that the person experiencing the apparition won't through beliefs and cultural expectations interpret the experience as supernatural.

Dan the problem still exists. You are using the word “supernatural” but once someone thinks something is real it is no longer supernatural, it then is part of the physical world at least according to that person. If one sees an apparition and thinks it’s an angel, that angel is no longer supernatural. If someone thinks they can hear God, whatever they hear is no longer supernatural sound, it’s real. But the problem hasn’t changed irrespective if you disagree with what I just said. If a person sees a vision and assumes it’s an angel and hears a sound and assumes it’s God then they are unable to discern fantasy from reality unless they appreciate it's a function of their minds and not something which really exists outside of them.

This is what they signed: "And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon…."

The angel is a “he” and they clearly say they saw with their eyes the angel who brought the plates before them.

Mark Twain sarcastically said it well with regards to the 3 witnesses : “Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything; but for me, when a man tells me that he has “seen the engravings which are upon the plates,” and not only that, but an angel was there at the time, and saw him see them, and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction, no matter whether I ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel, or his nationality either.”

Because of their Book of Mormon statement, because it was a statement which showed the witnesses describing fantasy as if it were reality anything else they have to say with regards to Mormonism is called into question. Whatever they say with regards to Mormonsim has to be evaluated in light of the kinds of absurd testimony these men indicated they are capable of making. It doesn’t matter whether they made the statement due to insanity or they truly thought they saw an angel and heard a God, or they appreciated it was extraordinary. No where in that testimony do they give any indication that what they saw and heard was not real.


Dan: If your definition were true, then everyone who interpreted a hallucination as metaphysically real would be out of touch with reality and psychotic. And that's not so.

What does “metaphysically real” mean? Isn’t that an oxymoron. Those 3 witnesses, if they truly thought they saw an angel and heard God, were out of touch with reality. I really am not interested in whether they are psychotic or not.


Dan: Now, if one reads only the published Testimony of Three Witnesses, one might get the impression that the vision was as close to normal as possible. But from subsequent statements, it is clear that the witnesses understood that what they were experiencing was preternatural or anomalous. After interviewing David Whitmer in 1885, James Henry Moyle noted in his journal:
Quote:
"Mr D. Whitmer Sen did not handle the plates. Only saw them. ... Says he did see them and the angel and heard him speak. But that it was indiscribable that it was through the power of God. ... he then spoke of Paul hearing and seeing Christ but his associates did not. Because it is only seen in the Spirit."

-- (James Henry Moyle, Diary, 28 June 1885, LDS archives).


Moyle "asked if the atmosphere about them was normal." In other words, did the angel appear in normal surroundings or had the vision entirely obscured the natural world? According to Whitmer, "t was indescribable, but the light was bright and clear, yet apparently a different kind of light, something of a soft haze." Moyle, a Mormon and recent law school graduate, noted his disappointment: "I was not fully satisfied with the explanation. It was more spiritual than I anticipated."

What on earth does “see in spirit” mean and “It was more spiritual” ? The fact is the Book of Mormon testimony signed by all 3, clearly stated they saw just like everyone else in this world sees, with their eyes. Moyle may call it "spiritual" but until Moyle or anyone else can explain exactly what it’s like to “see spiritually” I reject such vague explanations which are absolute nonsense. It’s obvious to me, Whitmer was backtracking on his Book of Mormon testimony because he was having difficulty explaining what an angel looked like and a god sounds like, particularly when he knew none of it was true.

Dan: According to Stephen Burnett, Harris told an Ohio congregation in 1838 that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination," adding that the witnesses had seen the plates "spiritually or in vision with their eyes shut" (S. Burnett to L. E. Johnson, 15 Apr. 1838, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 2:64, 65 [EMD 2:291, 292-93]). Reuben P. Harmon, a neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision" ([I]Naked Truths About Mormonism 1 [Apr. 1888]: 1 [EMD 2:385]). While living in Utah, Harris told Anthony Metcalf that he saw the angel and the plates in a "visionary or entranced state" (Ten Years before the Mast, 70 [EMD 2:346]

Well this raises the question of why Harris would sign the testimony when it clearly was meant to lead the reader to believe all 3 men saw an angel, and heard a God in the normal physical sense we all consensually know. Again this shows that this witness is dishonest and deliberately willing to mislead, in short unrealiable in the statements he makes relating to Mormonism. If what Harris saw was in an entranced state, that was not indicated in the signed testimony which clearly implied they visualized in a “sober state”.

Dan: So the witnesses clearly knew the difference between what they had experienced and everyday reality. If what the witnesses experienced was the result of strong suggestion, or something like hypnosis, then the witnesses would not have to be abnormal people.

What I’m looking for are honest people who give statements which are reliable as well as rational. At issue is not whether the witnesses are insane or abnormal ..at issue is whether one can rely on their statements as being accurate, honest and reflective of reality. The 3 Book of Mormon witnesses fail. If they didn’t clearly see an angel,the plates and hear God then that should have been reflected in their signed testimony. So their statement are misleading and dishonest. If they had been hypnotized and thought they truly saw an angel and God, again they aren’t reliable, because they are unable to differentiate reality from the hypnotized state they were in. A rational individual would appreciate they didn’t really see an angel or hear a God once they are out of their hypnotized state. Mark Twain in essence noted what I'm saying. As soon as someone mentions to Twainabout seeing an angel, he needed no more evidence to dismiss it.


Marg: It doesn't mean they are insane, but in this instance the evidence is that when it comes to what they claim with regards to Mormonism one must be highly skeptical of their statements because they are not highly reliable. They may be credulous, they may be intellectually dishonest, I don't know nor do I care in evaluating their reliability.


Dan: This is the point that I'm making. Many people experience hallucination, but that has nothing to do with their ability of assess everyday experiences and accurately report them. Courts don't bother with people who have religious experiences. The fact that someone who has experienced a vision is not considered unreliable in court should cause you to question your position on this matter. Only when there is psychosis or an organic brain disorder should the issue of competency come into play.

I think if these 3 witnesses were alive and had to testify in court with regards to their various experiences in Mormonism, and it was known they had signed the testimony in the Book of Mormon, that testimony would have a bearing on the reliability of anything else they would have to say with regards to Mormonism. It’s an extremely important statement because it is a signed testimony presented to the world in a sacred book. Their honesty, their sanity, their intelligence, would all be called into question by their testimony and it would be part of the evidence in court.


Dan: But now you say that you are not concerned about reliability.

I didn’t say I don’t care about their reliability. I said I don’t care in determining reliability whether they are unreliable due to being credulous or due to intellectual dishonestly.

Dan: So the only basis you have for rejecting the testimony of multiple witnesses is because they later had visions. That sounds more like YOUR biased opinion, than an argument.


Mark Twain quickly assessed. He didn't need all sorts of evidence. Didn't need to determine whether the 3 witnesses were insane, liars, were hypnotized, he just knew the testimony was B.S. - could not be relied upon. I carry it a step further and point out that since the signed testimony which was the most important testimony they ever gave can not be relied upon it raises a red flag and calls into question any other statements they might have made with regards to Mormonism.

Dan: At this point, you need to explain explicitly what you imagine happened. How do you explain multiple witnesses? You don't seem to have a coherent position. Did they all hallucinate Joseph Smith dictating with his head in the hat? If not, why bring up the issue hallucination and imply that it has something to do with their accounts? Or, are they all liars in conspiracy with Joseph Smith? If they were, then how does the accusation of credulity relate to that claim? So, what is it that you are arguing?

Regarding the head in the hat, I think a few a Head in the Hat shows were put on for unsuspecting people such as I. Hale, and M. Morris who happened to drop by. I think Smith started out with Harris with a blanket separating them and Harris went along without asking too many question. I think Harris wanted to believe what Smith told him and wasn’t interested in finding out differently and so would either not investigate or would willingly look the other way. I think he was interested in reinforcing and confirming what he wanted to believe, not in learning the truth. Emma I think was somewhat like Harris but was motivated differently. She did what she thought was best for herself and family, even if it meant having to lie or look the other way. I’m not sure how much D. Whitmer observed of the dictation process, but very little of what he says I consider reliable based on what I've read. I don’t think he’s gullible I think he’s an easy liar. I thought J. Whitmer was a scribe but I don’t remember his statement on the dictation process and on my brief search on the Net found nothing. I don’t remember reading much from Cowdery either yet he was the main scribe I believe 90 – 95%. I seem to remember reading that he gave a statement in court and described Smith using I think the Urim and Thummin or Interpreters. I found this on the Net from Cowdery "These were days never to be forgotten — to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, 'Interpreters,' the history, or record, called 'The Book of Mormon."

I have a problem with Cowdery saying Urim and Thummin or Interpreters because at the time he was a scribe the story given was that the interpreters were taken back by the angel after Harris and Smith from that time forward used a seer stone. So what was Cowdery doing mentioning “interpreters” if that’s not what was allegedly used? I understand why he’d want to say Urim and thummin as it sounds more respectable than the seer stone, since they are mentioned in the Bible. So Cowdery isn’t completely honest in this statement. What I think is that Cowdery and Smith worked together with source material present. I believe most of the work done at the Whitmer home had a blanket kept at the doorway for privacy. I think it would be fairly easy to keep an eye at the door, Smith to keep a hat held to his forehead while reading and working and if someone came quickly then quickly look into and carry on. If the whole Whitmer family was around and observing them openly while they were working translating then I think the whole family was in on the hoax. I don’t have all the Whitmer’s statements on the process, in order to evaluate each family member. I think the early Mormon organization which Smith started up attracted people willing to lie with the idea that they’d benefit in the future and they may have thought it was for the greater good of all. I also think that later there would be little benefit to owning up to the hoax and in addition everyone was probably threatened that should anyone expose it their families would be killed.

I do not believe Smith stuck his head in a hat and read words or a sentence, stopped, pretended to wait until words or sentence disappeared and a new one appeared and did this process for the entire book. Such a process would be too time consuming and irritating.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Dan what 4 witnesses do you consider the most reliable convincing witnesses for the "Head in the Hat absent source material" theory?

What is Cowdery's best statement of the process? John Whitmer's, Emma's and anyone else you think is important?
_marg

Post by _marg »

Dan,

I was looking at this site http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user ... rybom.html and it's statements by Oliver Cowdery.

No where could I find him mention the "head in the hat" yet he was the main scribe, nor does he mention words appearing on a stone and then disappearing etc. All I found that he mentioned was Smith used the urim and thummin or "interpreters." I know the church has come up with the explanation that the urim and thummin later was used interchangably with seer stone but where's Cowdery's statement that words appeared and disappeared on the the "interpreters"?

This in inconsistent with other witnesses who said a seer stone was used and words glowed on it while Smith looked in the Hat.


Here is a quote near the end of the article:


"At a special conference held at Kanesville, Iowa, Oct. 21, 1848, and presided over by Apostle Orson Hyde, Oliver Cowdery was present and made the following remarks: "Friends and Brethren,--My name is Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery. In the early history of this Church I stood identified with her, and one in her councils. True it is that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance; not because I was better than the rest of mankind was I called; but, to fulfill the purposes of God. He called me to a high and holy calling. I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or, as it is called by that book, 'holy interpreters.' I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the 'holy interpreters.' That book is true. Sidney Rigdon did not write it; Mr. Spaulding did not write it; I wrote it myself as it fell from the lips of the Prophet."

What I note is that Cowdery makes no mention of any "spiritual sight" or dreamlike state. He clearly describes it as a real physical experience. "I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the 'holy interpreters.' "

The "interpreters were only allegedly around at the beginning when he signed the Book of Mormon testimony, so that's when he allegedly handled them. So he knows there is a major difference between seer stone and interpreters yet later (1848) he says the "interpreters" were used when Smith dictated to him. It's obvious these guys had difficulties keeping their stories straight, and the reason being they were lying. Twain was right, you don't need tons of evidence, it's obvious.
_Uncle Dale
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:
Regarding the head in the hat, I think a few a Head in the Hat shows were put on for unsuspecting
people such as I. Hale, and M. Morris who happened to drop by. I think Smith started out with Harris
with a blanket separating them and Harris went along without asking too many question. I think Harris
wanted to believe what Smith told him and wasn’t interested in finding out differently and so would
either not investigate or would willingly look the other way....



I tend to agree -- though in Harris' case perhaps he typified the "searching true believer" who initially
questions remarkable things he very much wishes to believe in. And, though in several cases his
initial scepticism may be reinforced by his investigations, the "searching true believer" somehow
comes away from such disclosures with his faith strengthened. It is inexplicible to the rational
mind --- but may appear a bit more of a familiar phenomenon, if we compare it to romantic love.
The would-be lover learns many harsh things about the unworhy beloved, but sets them aside
and goes into a state of denial regarding the facts -- so that a much desired love can be obtained.

As for the head-in-the-hat routine, I still cannot fathom how that could have been 100% of the
process, if the KJV Bible/Apocrypha/Josephus/Clarke's Commentary was used (perhaps all from
a single, omnibus Bible, such as existed in those days).


If the Bible was used for constructing part of the Book of Mormon text, then the head-in-the-hat routine was
NOT 100% of the process used in creating the Book of Mormon text.

If the Bible was so used, then dictation may not have been 100% of the method used in giving the text.

If Oliver Cowdery attempted (or even partly succeeded) in performing "translation," then Joseph Smith need
not have been the sole source for the Nephite story.


That is all I am looking for --- a set of events in which Smith was NOT 100% author; in which dictation
was NOT 100% method; and in which head-in-the-hat useage was NOT 100%.

Heck, I'd even believe something more like 75% such a process, than just "a few a Head in the Hat shows."

But -- until some distinct evidence can be obtained for what I am suggesting, my hypothesis remains
only a possibility -- and one requiring additional, reliable evidence to establish as a reasonable explanation.

UD

By the bye, I too have "seen" angels --- though I doubt that anybody else who had then been present
beside me at the time would have duplicated my discernment. Nor do I think that my divulging this experience
makes my testimony regarding the color of my bedroom wall, or the size of my shoe, or the name of my cat
especially unreliable. This having been said, I too can, to some extent, sympathize with the early Mormon
witnesses and can hold open in my own estimation the possibility that they related reliable facts in some
instances, but that they related highly suspicious and totally unverifiable assertions in other instances.

All of which makes this Book of Mormon origins topic far too complex for any simplistic application of Occam's razor.
_Dan Vogel
_Emeritus
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Uncle Dale wrote:As for the head-in-the-hat routine, I still cannot fathom how that could have been 100% of the
process, if the KJV Bible/Apocrypha/Josephus/Clarke's Commentary was used (perhaps all from
a single, omnibus Bible, such as existed in those days).


Besides the obvious use of the KJV, I'm unaware of any evidence that he plagiarized another source to the extent that he would have had to take his head out of the hat.

If the Bible was used for constructing part of the Book of Mormon text, then the head-in-the-hat routine was
NOT 100% of the process used in creating the Book of Mormon text.

If the Bible was so used, then dictation may not have been 100% of the method used in giving the text.


No one claims that it was %100. We have good evidence that he probably did so with the long chapters from the KJV. What evidence do you have that he did it on any other occasion? Your argument is the fallacy of possible proof. Look it up.

If Oliver Cowdery attempted (or even partly succeeded) in performing "translation," then Joseph Smith need not have been the sole source for the Nephite story.


He didn't translate. We have been over this. Read the revelation.

That is all I am looking for --- a set of events in which Smith was NOT 100% author; in which dictation was NOT 100% method; and in which head-in-the-hat useage was NOT 100%.

Heck, I'd even believe something more like 75% such a process, than just "a few a Head in the Hat shows."


Generous, but still the fallacy of possible proof. Here, let me help.

The fallacy of the possible proof consists in an attempt to demonstrate that a factual statement is true or false by establishing the possibility of its truth or falsity. "One of the greatest fallacies of evidence," a logician has observed, "is the disposition to dwell on the actual possibility of its being false; a possibility which must exist when it is not demonstrative. Counsel can bewilder juries in this way till they almost doubt their own senses." This tactic may indeed prove to be forensically effective in an Anglo-American court of law, but it never proves a point at issue. Valid empirical proof requires not merely the establishment of possibility, but of probability. Moreover, it demands a balanced estimate of probabilities pro and con. If historians, like lawyers, must respect the doctrine of reasonable doubt, they must equally be able to recognize an unreasonable doubt when they see one.

David Hackett Fischer, Historians' Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical Thought (New York and Evanston: Harper and Row,1970), 53.



But -- until some distinct evidence can be obtained for what I am suggesting, my hypothesis remains only a possibility -- and one requiring additional, reliable evidence to establish as a reasonable explanation.


No, it doesn't. You are trying to make it possible, but in the world of historiography multiple witnesses, both friendly and hostile, carries a lot of weight. They specifically deny that there was anything like the Spalding MS being used. The Bible was not mentioned, because that was not the concern of those questioning the faith. If Joseph Smith used the KJV as a translation aid, it would not have aroused suspicion.

By the bye, I too have "seen" angels --- though I doubt that anybody else who had then been present beside me at the time would have duplicated my discernment. Nor do I think that my divulging this experience makes my testimony regarding the color of my bedroom wall, or the size of my shoe, or the name of my cat especially unreliable. This having been said, I too can, to some extent, sympathize with the early Mormon witnesses and can hold open in my own estimation the possibility that they related reliable facts in some instances, but that they related highly suspicious and totally unverifiable assertions in other instances.

All of which makes this Book of Mormon origins topic far too complex for any simplistic application of Occam's razor.


So true. Nearly anyone can see an apparition. But people differ about how to interpret the experience. When I was young, I saw an apparition of a little girl floating above me in a dark room. At the time, due to my Mormon culture, I believed it was a spirit. Now, of course, I have a different interpretation. On the subject of hallucination, scientist Carl Sagan has written: "We would surely be missing something important about our own nature if we refused to face up to the fact that hallucinations are part of being human" (Sagan, Demon Haunted World, 1996, 107).

Marg is going down the path of the apologists, who argue that the witnesses were either telling the truth, and their visions were real, or they were lying. There are several underlying assumptions in such rhetoric: (1) people with reputations for honesty, industry, and intelligence neither lie nor hallucinate; (2) liars and hallucinators are lazy, stupid, or of low social standing; (3) hallucinators are crazy and easily distinguishable from normal people. All these assumptions are demonstrably false. There are no clear personality types, who are more susceptible to hallucination and hypnotism. The assumption that such people are easily lead or weak is simply wrong.

The apologetic assumption that the witnesses were of independent character and would have not been easily deceived by Joseph Smith is based on an erroneous understanding of hypnosis. Bowers states: "[S]ince hypnotized subjects apparently submit so completely to the authority of the hypnotist, they must be very acquiescent sorts of people. As it turns out, acquiescence, deference, and gullibility refer to traits that bear only a very superficial resemblance to what goes on in hypnosis" (Kenneth S. Bowers, Hypnosis for the Seriously Curious (New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1976), 116). It is also incorrect to believe that good hypnotic subjects are weak-willed (Ibid.).
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_marg

Post by _marg »

Uncle Dale wrote: By the bye, I too have "seen" angels --- though I doubt that anybody else who had then been present
beside me at the time would have duplicated my discernment.


I'm curious and I mean these questions in a friendly way, if it's too much to answer don't. What does an angel look like, sound like, feel like? How can you conclude you saw an angel, who told you what an angel looks like? Were you sick, on medication, on drugs, recovering from sugery? How old were you. What made the circumstance unique? Was it a dream or were you awake?
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:
I'm curious and I mean these questions in a friendly way, if it's too much to answer don't. What does an angel look like, sound like, feel like?



I can only speak from my own limited perception, so what I say may not match too well
what some other people might say. As for looks, the closest word I can come up with would
be fire -- but not a uniform sort of fire --- but, say, fire with some internal structure or form.

As for sound, the closest I can communicate might be the "auuuuummmm" of a Buddhist chant;
or perhaps something like the soundtrack in 2001 - Space Odyssey, when the astronaut is
being transported to wherever it was that he ended up. Take a Russian Orthodox choir hymn,
and move the singers far off -- just within hearing range. That might be somewhat similar.

As for feel, I have no word for that element, except perhaps the human reaction of fear or
alarm. So far as angels "feeling" things in a physical fashion, I have no experience of that.

My general description would agree with Tillich --- that they are "powers of being" and not "beings."
I would say, more related to the "kavod" or the "glory" of biblical accounts, than to materialism.
Something similar, by analogy, to icebergs or pack ice at sea --- perceptibly separate from the
sea, but soon destined to melt back into that basic element


How can you conclude you saw an angel, who told you what an angel looks like?



Good question -- the experience would fit equally well with written accounts of
Israelite angels or Hindu devas. I use that sort of terminology because it is commonly
known and more or less understandable. If I did not have scriptural terminology to fall
back upon, perhaps I would try to make use of some scientific vocabulary. I'm not sure
what would be appropriate --- perhaps reference to the invisible electromagentic spectrum,
such as infra-red or sound pitched too low for human hearing??? Maybe synesthesia --
or the analogy of sunlight glare upon moving water. It would be difficult to communicate
the experience in purely scientific vocabulary, because it includes the perception of
external intelligence, emotion, awe, non verbal communication, etc.

Were you sick, on medication, on drugs, recovering from sugery?



None of that --- but was listening to "empathetic music" -- was shortly after the death
of my son. Some alteration of consciousness, but not dizziness or loss of perception.

How old were you.



Not quite 30 --- during my initial grad school studies.

What made the circumstance unique?



Hard to give an answer. I almost wish I could re-create the scene
on film, with some special cinematic effects -- I think that might convey
things better than my attempt to put it all into words.

Was it a dream or were you awake?



Normal, waking consciousness -- but concentrated awareness -- akin to light meditation
or prayerful contemplation. I certainly was not expecting an epiphany.

UD
_marg

Post by _marg »

previous:
I'm curious and I mean these questions in a friendly way, if it's too much to answer don't. What does an angel look like, sound like, feel like?

Dale: I can only speak from my own limited perception, so what I say may not match too well what some other people might say. As for looks, the closest word I can come up with would be fire -- but not a uniform sort of fire --- but, say, fire with some internal structure or form.

===Thanks Dale. So did the angel which you saw have human features? Did you clearly observe them in detail? Did they wear clothes? Did you observe them move, talk? Did you see more than one at one time. If so did you observe them communicate with one another?

Dale: My general description would agree with Tillich --- that they are "powers of being" and not "beings."

===Sorry I don't get that. What is the difference between a "power of being" versus a "being."
I don't mean to be critical but this sort of language sounds very obscure to me.


previously: How can you conclude you saw an angel, who told you what an angel looks like?

Dale: Good question -- the experience would fit equally well with written accounts of
Israelite angels or Hindu devas. I use that sort of terminology because it is commonly
known and more or less understandable. If I did not have scriptural terminology to fall
back upon, perhaps I would try to make use of some scientific vocabulary. I'm not sure
what would be appropriate --- perhaps reference to the invisible electromagentic spectrum,
such as infra-red or sound pitched too low for human hearing??? Maybe synesthesia --
or the analogy of sunlight glare upon moving water. It would be difficult to communicate
the experience in purely scientific vocabulary, because it includes the perception of
external intelligence, emotion, awe, non verbal communication, etc.


=== Do you think you saw angels which really existed (perhaps in some other dimension not easily detected) but which you happened to be able to detect or do you think the stress at the time affected and altered your perceptive abilities and you chose to interprete your experience as observing angels.
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Post by _Uncle Dale »

marg wrote:Thanks Dale. So did the angel which you saw have human features?



I'm not sure how to answer. Dolphins and parrots can have "human features" in how they
inter-relate to human beings, but those are transitory and not part of their natural physical
appearance. I would say that angels have "human features" in the same way that you
might look into your dog's eyes and know whether she was happy to see you or not. Beyond
that, I would say that angels resemble moving fire, or brilliant sunlight upon rippling water,
moreso than they do humans. And yet, they have a form that is discernable to the human
perception, as something familiar --- perhaps in the same way that a very young infant
preceives something very recognizable in its mother's face.

Did you clearly observe them in detail? Did they wear clothes?



Just as the flames of a fire fade downward into smoke or invisible thin air, so the angels'
perceptible forms faded away in a downward direction. I did not see if they had legs or
other bodily features. I spoke earlier of a structure or form -- perhaps something like
the layers of an onion. Is the outermost layer the onion's clothes? I'm not sure the term fits.

Did you observe them move, talk?



They moved in the same way a vibrating object moves -- or perhaps an undulating object.
That is, they were not motionless statues. Their communication was something other than
talking -- more like choir singing. I comprehend why past writers describe angelic singing.
And yet, it was not singing -- and not directed specifically at or to me.

Did you see more than one at one time. If so did you observe them communicate with one another?



Just like you might see more and more of a landscape, as the early morning sun rises,
I discerned more and more of the angels, as they became more recognizable. That is why
I referred to the analogy of infra red earlier. Suppose that your eyes slowly became more
and more sensitive to discerning infra red light waves in front of you. You would slowly
begin to see more and more of the previously invisible rays, until at last you saw them all.
So there was a short passage of time -- but not much. Then they faded away, in the reverse
manner. During the span of the phenomenon, a very large number became visible. They
were obviously engaged in some sort of activity, which was intelligent and communicative.

Dale: My general description would agree with Tillich --- that they are "powers of being" and not "beings."

===Sorry I don't get that. What is the difference between a "power of being" versus a "being."
I don't mean to be critical but this sort of language sounds very obscure to me.



I don't have the Paul Tillich quote available -- but he interpreted the basic Israelite concept of
an angel rather like the "persona" of a Greek drama. That is, a power that communicates to the
audience, by use of the "persona," but which disappears when the scene is finished. Such a
communicative power originates in the playwriter, and exists only so long as the play is being
performed. Hamlet and Horatio are not "beings" like you and I -- they are Shakespearean vehicles
of communication. At least, I think Tillich was interpreting along those lines.


Do you think you saw angels which really existed (perhaps in some other dimension not
easily detected) but which you happened to be able to detect...



yes

or do you think the stress at the time affected and altered your perceptive abilities and you
chose to interprete your experience as observing angels.



I am a unitarian with a small "u" -- so I profess a unity in all things. At the basic level of
reality, I do not differentiate between an external "other" and my internal ego or self-identity.
Given that world-view, there is not much difference in my way of thinking, between another
person who interacts with me, and my own mental preceptions and interpretations of that
person. On the other hand, I see and talk to my next door neighbor on a continuing basis --
whether he is a figment of my imagination, a phantom, a delusion, or a physical person.

The angels, on the other hand, I only experienced once -- and would be happy to never
have such a "glimpse" again.

Finally -- we were speaking of the Book of Mormon witnesses -- who reported paranormal or supernatural
events. I can understand that sort of thing. I can choose to believe them, or not ---- but regardless
of that, I can still study other, less remarkable, things they said and did, somewhat aside from
the "spiritual" phenomena -- or delusions -- or mesmerism, or whatever.

That was the basic point I was trying to make, for your benefit and for Dan's.

UD
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