Only begotten son?

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_Runtu
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Re: Only begotten son?

Post by _Runtu »

rcrocket wrote: The LDS version of the atonement will not otherwise work without this concept.


I'm intrigued. In what way does LDS theology require this concept?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hold the phone!

I thought the teaching that God used his sperm to father Jesus was no longer taught. I thought this went the way of the Adam/God theory and no birth control... ya know, "just an opinion of those misinformed leaders?"

Gosh, I can't keep up these days!

:-)

Actually Kevin, this whole idea about what/who is God is at the heart of my disbelief. All the convoluted twisting to try to have all this "stuff" make sense makes me dizzy!


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Mike Reed
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Post by _Mike Reed »

The following comes from a brochure that I wrote for FAIR a few years ago while a TBM:


Jesus, the Only Begotten?

Critics exclaim: “Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, yet the Bible states that Jesus was God’s ‘only begotten son.’ Mormons, therefore, don’t believe in the Jesus of the Bible!”

The New Testament does indeed identify Jesus as God the Father’s “only begotten Son.” While attempting to understand exactly what this phrase meant, however, it is important to note that the title was not always intended to be taken literally in antiquity. We know this by considering Paul’s statement regarding Isaac’s relationship to his father Abraham. In Hebrews 11:17 Isaac is titled as Abraham’s “only begotten son,” despite the fact that Abraham also had a son named Ishmael.2

Additionally, the great first-century Jewish historian, Josephus, used this same terminology when describing the son of Monobazus (the king of Adiabene). Josephus recorded, “[Monobazus] had other sons by other wives besides [Helena]. Yet did he openly place all his affections on this his only begotten son Izates.”3

So, what does “only begotten” mean when speaking of sonship in this kind of context? The Greek term mon-og-en-ace’ (commonly translated as “only begotten”) was intended to denote that a son was unique, special, and of particular endearment4—which would set him apart from other sons.

Given these facts, we can ask the question, “Could this meaning also apply to Jesus’ relationship to God the Father, being unique, special, and of particular endearment, thereby allowing a belief which includes Jesus having siblings?” Certainly.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that Jesus is the spirit brother of both angels and all mankind. Before you and I were born, we lived with God the Father and our brother Jesus Christ. It is true that Lucifer was a son of God. It is also understood that he became prideful and rebelled against God. In consequence of his actions and unwillingness to accept the Father’s plan, Lucifer was cast out of Heaven.

While considering this, it should not be overlooked that Latter-day Saints believe Jesus was indeed unique and special among all of God’s children. As has been stated by the First Presidency, “Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others.”5 There are four key points that distinguish Jesus from His spiritual siblings:

*He has seniority as the firstborn.
*He is literally the Father’s only begotten Son in the flesh.
*He was foreordained to be the only Savior and Redeemer of the world.
*He was sinless.



----------------------------

2 Josephus also calls Isaac Abraham’s “only begotten son.” Antiquities 1:222; Similarly, in Hebrew, ben yakh’-ad or ben yaw-kheed’ are typically translated as “only son.” The Hebrew phrase (as is found in Greek) can also mean “darling,” “beloved,” or “unique son.” See Genesis 22:2, 12, 16.
3 Antiquities 20:20.
4 Linguistic Key To the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1981), 363; Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (McLean, Virginia: MacDonald Publishing, 1940 ), 822, 823.
5 The Father and the Son, a Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve; as cited in James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1981), 426.




http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/I ... _Jesus.pdf
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Blixa wrote:Here's what blew me away...the whole Jesus = Jehovah business.

I quit going to church around age 16, but I swear I never picked up on this. I don't remember ever hearing this mentioned or reading any reference to it in church meetings or seminary.

So I just recently found out about it from talking on message boards and even though I'm a nonbeliever, it still kinda shocks me.

Is this belief unique to Mormons, or do other sects also believe Jesus was the god of the Old Testament?


I think LDS blow this way out of proportion. I think what this was meant to convey is that when God appeared to the ancient prophets it was Jesus appearing in his premortal form. Since the Son often speaks as if he is the Father and the Holy Ghost speaks as if he is one or the other or both splitting them is pretty pointless. Joseph Smith referred to the father as Jehovah more than once. In LDS theology the name Jehovah has now been limited to mean only Jesus Christ to make it easier to speak of both of them separately.

I know too many LDS (I used to be one) who waste a great deal of time trying to divide up the Godhead into neat compartments.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

The Nehor wrote:
Blixa wrote:Here's what blew me away...the whole Jesus = Jehovah business.

I quit going to church around age 16, but I swear I never picked up on this. I don't remember ever hearing this mentioned or reading any reference to it in church meetings or seminary.

So I just recently found out about it from talking on message boards and even though I'm a nonbeliever, it still kinda shocks me.

Is this belief unique to Mormons, or do other sects also believe Jesus was the god of the Old Testament?


I think LDS blow this way out of proportion. I think what this was meant to convey is that when God appeared to the ancient prophets it was Jesus appearing in his premortal form. Since the Son often speaks as if he is the Father and the Holy Ghost speaks as if he is one or the other or both splitting them is pretty pointless. Joseph Smith referred to the father as Jehovah more than once. In LDS theology the name Jehovah has now been limited to mean only Jesus Christ to make it easier to speak of both of them separately.

I know too many LDS (I used to be one) who waste a great deal of time trying to divide up the Godhead into neat compartments.


Yeah, but how does that change the fact that Blake's Nobodaddy is also the Lamb?

It still makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why would The Son speak as The Father?

by the way, you don't need to rush to answer or even answer---its a moot point for me, but still a weird thing.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

And another question... :-)

If God lived on a world similar to ours as a regular man, then could we assume he had a wife/wives and earthly children on whatever planet on which he lived?

So, why would anyone think Jesus was the only son from God's sperm?

Seems to me there must be other son's with God's DNA somewhere in the Universe.

So, evidently God is still sealed to his earthly wives but where are his children who are sealed to him?

As I said, the whole thing just makes me dizzy! It just makes NO sense to me whatsoever.

Oh well...

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Blixa wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Blixa wrote:Here's what blew me away...the whole Jesus = Jehovah business.

I quit going to church around age 16, but I swear I never picked up on this. I don't remember ever hearing this mentioned or reading any reference to it in church meetings or seminary.

So I just recently found out about it from talking on message boards and even though I'm a nonbeliever, it still kinda shocks me.

Is this belief unique to Mormons, or do other sects also believe Jesus was the god of the Old Testament?


I think LDS blow this way out of proportion. I think what this was meant to convey is that when God appeared to the ancient prophets it was Jesus appearing in his premortal form. Since the Son often speaks as if he is the Father and the Holy Ghost speaks as if he is one or the other or both splitting them is pretty pointless. Joseph Smith referred to the father as Jehovah more than once. In LDS theology the name Jehovah has now been limited to mean only Jesus Christ to make it easier to speak of both of them separately.

I know too many LDS (I used to be one) who waste a great deal of time trying to divide up the Godhead into neat compartments.


Yeah, but how does that change the fact that Blake's Nobodaddy is also the Lamb?

It still makes no sense to me whatsoever. Why would The Son speak as The Father?

by the way, you don't need to rush to answer or even answer---its a moot point for me, but still a weird thing.


Haven't read that poem in years.

They speak as each other because they are One. The Son can come and speak the words the Father wants him to speak. The Holy Ghost and angels with divine investiture can speak the words of either. I assume the voice that said to Nephi on the eve of the first Christmas Day that tomorrow I will come into the world was someone speaking for Christ as he was currently in a womb.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

truth dancer wrote:And another question... :-)

If God lived on a world similar to ours as a regular man, then could we assume he had a wife/wives and earthly children on whatever planet on which he lived?

So, why would anyone think Jesus was the only son from God's sperm?

Seems to me there must be other son's with God's DNA somewhere in the Universe.

So, evidently God is still sealed to his earthly wives but where are his children who are sealed to him?

As I said, the whole thing just makes me dizzy! It just makes NO sense to me whatsoever.

Oh well...

~dancer~


Hence why President Hinckley said that we don't know much about that. We don't.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

ARGHHH!

That's some 3-in-1 Trinitarianism, Nehor. Not the THREE SEPARATE BEINGS I was taught about.

And the "we don't know much about it" dodge never washed with me. You're the so-called Prophet with a hotline to Elohim, aren't you?

thanks anyway... : )
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Blixa wrote:ARGHHH!

That's some 3-in-1 Trinitarianism, Nehor. Not the THREE SEPARATE BEINGS I was taught about.

And the "we don't know much about it" dodge never washed with me. You're the so-called Prophet with a hotline to Elohim, aren't you?

thanks anyway... : )


We're not trinitarian but they are one in purpose and one in being. Some of our classes overstate their separateness and ignore their collectivism because we are not trinitarians.

I think you're reversing the process. Elohim has a hotline to the Prophet, not vice-versa. Too many members get it into their head that God will answer any question the Prophet comes up with. I don't think that is true. God has never answered all of my questions. Some he says "not in this life", others "not now", and some he answers.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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