Why We Need Religion

[_moksha]

Religion provides a built in support system during times of loss and significant upset. It provides comfort and solace.
Religious belief can help shore you up during times of adversity.

Religion helps welcome your newborns into the world and helps you bury your dead. If helps you get married and celebrates
holidays with you. Religion can help add meaning to your life.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I've always wondered this myself. What motivates you Beastie, if I might ask? I'm not trying to be smart alicky or prove a point, just curious to know how you find meaning in your life.

Has life ever gotten really miserable and you just wanted to end it? I know Shades is an atheist and he seems to advise against suicide. My question is why? If you're miserable, than why?

If life isn't eternal, what's anything matter any way? Whatever we do is very insignficant when compared to eternity. Whether I die tomorrow or 100 years from now, what's the difference when considering eternity?

Just because committing suicide has no eternal consequence, how is that a reason to do it?

Maybe some people who are suicidally depressed become atheists, but most atheists just aren't suicidally depressed and most atheists don't even have to look for meaning in their lives. They just have it.

[_beastie]

Thinking some more about what his possible point could be, if he stated that, as a supposed atheist, he didn't have the desire to rape, kill, and engage in genocide, his point might be that because atheists don't do these things proves some godbeing exists.

Could that be it?

If so, this reveals his deep ignorance about evolutionary theory, as well as his natural incapacity for logic.

The answer is simple, so simple it is surprising even a log can't figure it out. Human beings have evolved with the natural tendency towards whatever system of ethics enabled the largest number of our ancestors, in their environment, to successfully reproduce and survive. If the majority of our ancestors all wanted to rape and kill, they would not have survived in large numbers. If the majority of our ancestors, instead, behaved with altruistic reciprocal behavior combined with tit for tat (which has been demonstrated through game theory to be the ethic system of behavior that results in the most successful reproduction and survival), and only a very small minority wanted to rape and kill, then human beings will still thrive and survive.

I'll have to read his exchanges with Tarski. If he really is so ignorant that this was his point, then watching him spar with Tarski, one of the brightest and most educated posters over there, will be hysterical.

[Tator]

I believe the xtian in question on RfM posts under the name "beaglie" not "beastie."

Oh, yeah, I've seen her. I've never seen a beastie there.

I've always wondered this myself. What motivates you Beastie, if I might ask? I'm not trying to be smart alicky or prove a point, just curious to know how you find meaning in your life.

Has life ever gotten really miserable and you just wanted to end it? I know Shades is an atheist and he seems to advise against suicide. My question is why? If you're miserable, than why?

If life isn't eternal, what's anything matter any way? Whatever we do is very insignficant when compared to eternity. Whether I die tomorrow or 100 years from now, what's the difference when considering eternity?

ajax,

I'll answer you, and I'm not trying to be rude in my answer, either.

Questions like log's are disturbing for one reason, which is the implication about his own desires which can only be controlled through a godbeing with a stick or carrot (or, alternatively, the implication about his intelligence and education). Questions like yours are sad for another reason, and that is what it implies about the nature of your own life. It really sounds like you're depressed, if only the existence of a godbeing and some eternal life keeps you from killing yourself.

Why does your life only matter if it makes a difference when considering eternity?

I have been through some very difficult periods in life. I was married to an emotionally unstable and verbally abusive man (but he was a temple recommend holder, RM, active in church, and put on a real good show!!), was too afraid to divorce him (because of what he would do to me AND what the LDS God would do to me for breaking my temple covenants) so spent fifteen years in that hell with him. I divorced him after losing belief in the LDS church and those same temple covenants, and yes, he did go off the deep end and threaten to kill me and escalate his abuse for a while, but I protected my kids and, in the end, we made it through fine. I have raised three children pretty much alone, and each one has had a significant health problem. I now struggle with a significant health problem that could potentially alter the rest of my life as well.

Yet, through all of this, I didn't have to struggle to find meaning in my life. Life has so many moments of inherent beauty and joy that it was obvious my life had meaning. I have three children who have grown into interesting, thoughtful and enjoyable adults. (well, almost adults, late teens) I have a wonderful significant other who has stuck by me through all these hard times, not out of obligation, but due to the fact that we really enjoy each other's companies on many levels. We share similar goals and viewpoints, and more importantly, we laugh a lot together. We have an intense intimate connection that results in deep emotional comfort and mind-blowing sex. I don't have to search for meaning in my life. My life abounds with meaning and I count myself very lucky.

I don't think that it's the lack of God that divests life of meaning - I think it is loneliness. Loneliness is what makes people wonder if there is any point to it all. (or desperation due to a horrible situation)

But just to imagine that life without god would be so meaningless because what you do won't matter in terms of eternity is such a sad viewpoint, that I do worry about a person who makes such a statement.

This "what does it matter when compared to eternity" reminds me of the now defunct "ALightInTheDarkness'" point. Nihilism is an inevitable produce of atheism if the only measurement is against ETERNITY. Sure, my life means nothing in terms of ETERNITY. But why the heck should eternity be the ruler by which we measure meaning? Why not the natural measurement of our own biological lives? That is the realm in which we live, not ETERNITY. As I pointed out to ALITD, if you insist on the ruler of ETERNITY to measure meaning, then not even Mormonism saves one from nihilism. In the eternal aspects of innumberable gods and worlds, what does our little planet and our own god matter? You think that if our particular god hadn't existed, it would affect the rest of ETERNITY with innumerable gods and worlds? Naw, it wouldn't matter in the least.

Ironically, there is only one time in my entire life I actually thought suicide was appealing, and it was as a Mormon missionary. I am not a depressive person, but I was seriously depressed on my mission. (knocking on irate strangers' doors eight + hours a day while being lectured by leaders on your failings tends to do that to you - I served in france, where many missionaries are depressed) Mid-way through, I did not know how I could possibly endure my mission and it felt endless. I thought of suicide, but get even more depressed when I realized that my misery wouldn't end there, that God would be so mad at me on the "other end", it wouldn't be worth it. But my depression and suicidal thoughts weren't due to the fact that my life had no meaning - it was due to horrific circumstances that if I could have "fixed" by changing circumstances. But since I was still a believer, that wasn't an option.

I have had a much happier and emotionally fulfilling life as an atheist than I ever had as a theist of any sort, including Mormon. I was so pre-occupied and worried about God - what he wanted from me, how to "have a relationship" with him, and whether I was "good enough" to merit seeing him again one day - and so stressed about not feeling "good enough" - that I was much more prone to depression as a believer than as an atheist.

[_Sethbag]

Meanwhile some mod over there has a boner for Tarski and keeps threatening him with red ink. Haven't seen much warning Log though.

Log's point is simple. There is nothing about the evolutionary explanation for what humans view as right and wrong which has anything to do with any intrinsic nature of right and wrong. In his mind, the mere fact that humans evolved with a built-in disinclination to rape and kill is not enough - humans have to not want to rape and kill because to do so violates some cosmological equation, independent of human invention, that says it's wrong to do so. That is his entire point.

He wants it to be admitted that there is some universal quality of something called "right", and another universal quality called "wrong", and that these qualities exist, as such, entirely independent, and absolute, as something fundemental in the universe. He wants Tarski and anyone else to admit that the evolutionary explanations and so forth aren't the same as that, and therefore he thinks he will triumph.

Log is actually right, in the way he has framed the question. Any evolutionary explanation does not include any notion of intrinsic rightness or wrongness, and recognizes only those qualities that tend to support the evolution of the human species. In Log's mind, the Godless, evolutionary universe does not include any sort of universal morality - there is, literally, no right and wrong. And he's right. Now, I don't think there's much consequence to his being right. He does. I'm satisfied in believing in a Right and Wrong even if they are merely evolutionary developments that have so far served the human well over the course of our existence.

[_Sethbag]

Wow, I meant to be replying to your previous post, and we cross-posted at 4 AM!!! WTF Beastie! It's either too late, or too early, for LDS apologetics. What we we doing up right now?

[_beastie]

Religion provides a built in support system during times of loss and significant upset. It provides comfort and solace.
Religious belief can help shore you up during times of adversity.

Religion helps welcome your newborns into the world and helps you bury your dead. If helps you get married and celebrates
holidays with you. Religion can help add meaning to your life.

Of course it can do all those things. But it is not unique in that ability.

If there are people who would engage in anti-social behavior except for the fact that they fear God's retribution, then we need God to control them - or rather, we need these individuals to believe in a God so they control themselves. The penal system doesn't seem to do a very good job as a preventative.

So when I say we "need" religion, I mean religion fills some unique need that nothing else could fill.

[_beastie]

Wow, I meant to be replying to your previous post, and we cross-posted at 4 AM!!! WTF Beastie! It's either too late, or too early, for LDS apologetics. What we we doing up right now?

LOL! The question is what are YOU doing up right now? I live on the East Coast, and it's a respectable 8:20 in the morning!!!

So on which thread is the mod's boner for Tarski popping up?

[_beastie]

Log's point is simple. There is nothing about the evolutionary explanation for what humans view as right and wrong which has anything to do with any intrinsic nature of right and wrong. In his mind, the mere fact that humans evolved with a built-in disinclination to rape and kill is not enough - humans have to not want to rape and kill because to do so violates some cosmological equation, independent of human invention, that says it's wrong to do so. That is his entire point.

He wants it to be admitted that there is some universal quality of something called "right", and another universal quality called "wrong", and that these qualities exist, as such, entirely independent, and absolute, as something fundemental in the universe. He wants Tarski and anyone else to admit that the evolutionary explanations and so forth aren't the same as that, and therefore he thinks he will triumph.

Log is actually right, in the way he has framed the question. Any evolutionary explanation does not include any notion of intrinsic rightness or wrongness, and recognizes only those qualities that tend to support the evolution of the human species. In Log's mind, the Godless, evolutionary universe does not include any sort of universal morality - there is, literally, no right and wrong. And he's right. Now, I don't think there's much consequence to his being right. He does. I'm satisfied in believing in a Right and Wrong even if they are merely evolutionary developments that have so far served the human well over the course of our existence.

You're probably right about his point.

So instead of incredibly poorly educated, dull-witted, or potentially dangerous, he is simply egotistical. The earth MUST revolve around the sun, after all. Our "rights and wrongs" must be ETERNAL to matter.

[_asbestosman]

Meanwhile some mod over there has a boner for Tarski and keeps threatening him with red ink. Haven't seen much warning Log though.

On my thread, the Mod warned both Log and Tarski. Besides, I already warned Log without warning Tarski. Perhaps I should have been more fair, but then again, the Mod beat me to it. And my warning was rude which Log called me on. Perhaps I was wrong in placing a barb in there, but I felt that particular barb would be incentive to act better as it implied that if God allows rude behavior, then certain believers are apt to be rude--which seems to go against the idea of theists being superior to atheists in morals and behavior.

Log is still rude on that thread, but he seems to have stopped the personal barbs. Tarski's comment about the magical black box was just the sort of thing I was hoping both would stop. Now granted, I feel like Log started it with his rudeness, but I also think that Log may not be able to help it to some degree (he has all but admitted to having asperger's). He at least seems to understand how to quit making things personal and I commend him for that. He also appears to have been doing quite well responding to The Dude.