Spong: Fundamentalism & its "Wrongs"...

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_Roger Morrison
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Spong: Fundamentalism & its "Wrongs"...

Post by _Roger Morrison »

I think the following 'paste' will be of interest to all thinkers whatever they believe:

May 30, 2007

The Third Fundamental:
The Substitutionary Death of Jesus on the Cross Alone Brings Salvation: Part One

It is hard in our generation to put into a single sentence the substance of the Third Fundamental that traditional Christians, at the beginning of the 20th century, said was essential to the Christian faith. Officially, it is referred to as "The doctrine of the substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith." Those words communicate almost nothing today. From generation to generation its meaning has been carried for Protestant Christians in the popular mantra, "Jesus died for my sins," while in Catholic Christianity it finds expression in talk about "the sacrifice of the mass" or in references to the cleansing power of Jesus being received sacramentally. These expressions employ the language of what the church has typically called: "the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement."

Over the next three weeks in this column, I intend to examine this familiar Christian idea that I regard today as a completely bankrupt way of understanding the Christian faith. In my opinion these atonement ideas have succeeded primarily in turning God into a child-abusing heavenly parent. They have also turned Jesus into being the ultimate, perhaps even the masochistic, victim of a sadistic father God. Furthermore when literalized, these ideas have turned ordinary Christians into people burdened by the weight of guilt that at best is immobilizing and at worst serves to create a religious justification for their own abuse of others. It had been primarily responsible, I believe, for the levels of anger that have infected Christian history, finding expression in the burning of heretics, anti-Semitism, religious wars, religious persecution, the Crusades and in the rampant homophobia that embraces so much of the Christian Church today. All of this arises out of that strange definition of humanity as so irreparably evil, that Jesus had to die to rescue us from our hopeless state. People who define themselves as evil, as chronic victims almost inevitably respond to the pain of that definition by victimizing others. These attitudes still infect Christian liturgy, expressing themselves in our hymns and prayers. Their constant recitation in typical church services feed the anger of fundamentalists who like to portray the ones not responsive to their message as bound for an eternity of suffering, while at the same time encouraging the rejection of all things religious by those caught up in the rising tide of secular humanism. Having made these grave charges let me now put content into this analysis.

Very early in Christian history, the idea developed that the death of Jesus must have had some ultimate significance. His crucifixion could not have been purposeless. It had to have been a pre-ordained act. As early as the mid fifties CE, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul sought to give expression to this idea when he wrote "Jesus died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures." That is the earliest attempt we have to ascribe purpose to the cross. Those words, however, reveal a number of presuppositions that drive us deeply into the Jewish experience.

Paul is implying first that human life is by definition both fallen and evil, and second, that Jesus' death addresses that reality. Paul is here giving expression to an idea that lies deep in the mythology and history of the Jewish people. Mythology's primary purpose is to explain reality. In this instance the reality crying out to be explained was the presence of evil in God's good world. No one can deny the presence of evil. Human beings kill, steal, rape and abuse one another. Human beings go to war and torture their enemies. Even religion is used by human beings to justify the enormous evil that we do to those who question religious tenets. Human beings seem threatened by those who are different and act toward the different ones with dehumanizing hostility. Our victims have included people of different races, different religions, people who are mentally and physically impaired, albino people, left handed people and homosexual people. Evil is easy to document. Its source, however, is a subject of much debate.

Evil was easier to explain in dualistic cultures where life was viewed as a battle between good and evil, God and Satan, the spiritual and material, than it was in those cultures that believed that God was both one and holy. Dualistic cultures postulated two deities, one good and one evil. This split divided human life as well with our souls belonging to one deity and our bodies belonging to the other. Religious life in these societies was understood as a struggle between the good deity and the evil one. Devotees were taught to mortify their fleshly desires so that their souls could be united with God. Evil was thus the product of a demonic creator.

In the Jewish tradition, however, the oneness of God could never be compromised by a competing deity. "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one God, you shall have no other Gods," is the heart of Judaism. Jews could thus never attribute evil to this one God so their explanation for the presence of evil had to find a different focus. The Hebrew people, therefore, created a myth to explain both the origins of life and its subsequent distortion with evil and placed that myth at the beginning of their sacred story. The tale of Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Garden of Eden is obviously not history. Like all myths it was designed to offer answers to questions that bothered the people, like how did the animals get created, why do people have to struggle against the elements to scratch a living from the soil, why do women experience pain in childbirth, why does a snake crawl on its belly and why is there evil in this world?

The one God of the Jews could only create a perfect world, they proclaimed, and so this story opened with a description of the world's perfection. God made it all out of nothing and pronounced it both good and finished. That is the message which opens the Book of Genesis.

There is, however, a second creation story in Genesis 2, written perhaps as much as 400 years earlier, that purports to show how God's good creation was destroyed by an act of disobedience. According to this story, God perceived that the human creature was lonely and so proceeded to fill the world with living things in a loving but somewhat unsuccessful attempt to find a proper companion for Adam. The great variety of animals came into being, it suggests, when God kept trying to make a creature that would satisfy the human desire for company. Adam, we are told, observed the wonder of God's ability to make so many variations among these creatures. Just look at the variety of tails alone. They were long, short, curly, bobbed, smooth, hairy and bushy. On the elephant the tail actually looked like it had been attached to both ends of the animal. However, in the midst of this almost infinite number of kinds of creatures, none was found that could alleviate Adam's loneliness. So the story says that God put Adam to sleep, removed one of his ribs and created a human-like, if not quite fully human, "junior" partner for the lordly male. She would become his helpmeet, serve his every need and be his intimate companion. As he named all the animals to demonstrate his superiority so Adam now named the submissive woman, "Eve."

It was Eve, the story then explains, who was the agent through which evil entered God's perfect world. The woman, defined as not as wise or as human as the man, displayed her weakness by succumbing to the serpent's temptation to become as wise as God by disobeying God's only rule. She ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The result of this sin was that her eyes were opened and she became aware of both shame and guilt. She quickly incorporated Adam into her act of disobedience and emblazoned the word "temptress" on to her forehead and the foreheads of all women ever since. God's perfection had been destroyed by this weak link in the chain of being. Imperfect people cannot inhabit the perfection of Eden so they were banished. Human life from that day to this, proclaims this myth of our origin, has been defined as fallen and sinful, our created perfection gone forever. Human destiny was to live "east of Eden."

Given that cause for the break in the relationship with the holy God, the Jews assumed that healing could come only from God's side. Having been banished from God's presence in the Garden of Eden, human beings could never reenter it. Having separated themselves from God, nothing that they could do could overcome that separation. Human life had to be rescued by God from its self-imposed bondage to sin. Unable to save ourselves we now required a divine savior.

Biblical anthropology thus began with a focus on human life as fallen and identified that fall as the source of all evil. It was from that alienation, they argued that all evil flowed. The Jews did not wallow in sin as the later Christians would do incessantly, but they did look to God for salvation and in their liturgy they developed something called the Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur, to keep this dream of divine rescue alive. The image of atonement associated with Yom Kippur then informed the mind of a first century man named Paul of Tarsus who compared Jesus in his death to the sacrificed lamb of Yom Kippur when he wrote: "He died for our sins." The view of Jesus as the substitutionary atonement starts here. Before it had run its course, it would create a religion of guilt and fear, reward and punishment, and even open the doors to a sadomasochistic understanding of the relationship between Jesus and God...


Thoughts??? Warm regards, Roger
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

Spong is totally f ed up in his fundamentalism. To bad he can't find a way to think outside of it.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

I don't follow necessarily what his problem is.

The idea that mankind is failing to meet the moral law we have inside of us is not really a theological creation. When the Apostles preached on the Day of Pentecost that there was salvation offered, no one asked what they were being saved from. They knew it.

The focus by Christ on childish innocence is condemning. Children are genuinely happy in a way adults won't allow themselves to be. I think so many adults refuse to be happy because they honestly don't believe they deserve anything better. This is carefully masked with complaints about money and circumstances. Some happiness shines through occassionally but it's more acceptable if it comes while you're not in your right mind. So many drink to escape themselves.

I used to live under that cloud. Then I had a realization about what the Atonement was about. It removed the dissonance of me trying to think I deserved happiness. I don't but God cared enough to give it to me anyways. Because of that I can rejoice and go through life being happy like a spoiled child who gets everything he doesn't deserve while deliberately (but not frantically) trying to grow closer to deserving it. All my worries about worthiness and righteousness faded away. Paul said righteousness was as filthy rags, King Benjamin said that if we served perfectly we would still be unprofitable.

The great side-bonus is it starts to kill off pride and introduce real humility. The kind that makes you smile and walk lighter.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_huckelberry
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Post by _huckelberry »

I wanted to give Nehor a respectful tip of the hat. I knew some of what he said was the better respose but was myself tol grouchy to bring my self to do that.

I find the broad brush attack on fundamentalism from Spong revolting enough that I have diffiulty responding. I have tried to give some second thoughts to what would transform the phrase, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, into the perception that God so hates the world that he even abuses his only begotten son.

It is staggering. But I suppose if Spong is thinking of Phelps then I can see the transformaton if if I am unsure of the reasons.

I am not the least bit happy with fundamentalism being characterized by Phelps. I consider myself a fundamentalist, though to do so means I accept a variety of kinds of understandings as fundamentalist. Not all of those would accept me, I do not accept all viewpoints advertised as fundamentalist. I am quite willing to think fundamentalist should be criticized. I think all of our understandings of Christianity are inadaquate and should be criticized. My ideas should be criticized. Yet I am a fundamentalist because I litreally believe in God the creator and in the incarnation and atonement as literal and worthey of love.

Perhaps Spong has his own negative experience which pertook of the spirit of Pheleps. I do not know. I think the atonement can be conceived in harmful ways. I would rather not do that.

The quote at the opening of this thread brought to many questions to my mind at one time. Instead of responding to everything it is easer to throw up ones hands.

I did find one simple thought about the quote that I would like to post here. I was puzzling about the odd interpretations of the fall as an explanation of evil in the world. I think Spong is in a way pointing out that the story does not eplain evil in the world. I have heard pleanty of times fundamentalists speaking as if the story was an explanation. I suspect people have a strong desire to see the Bible has having the answers to all our questions. It is obvious as the day is long that it has no such thing. It is not even anywhere close to having all the answers. I think everybody at least half alive knows that. But still there is the urge to pretend it does.

I think the story of the fall is not attempting to answer any question. Instead I think it is asking a question. It is a question that is repeated through out the Bible and though some beginnings of an answer is pointed to in the Bible. There is no answer instead there is a commision given us to live looking and in a hope that an answer to evil is possible. Or it could be said that we are commisioned to live with a hope in the partial responses we are capable of.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Nehor, this is the 3rd time i've tried to respond and LOST the 1st two :-( Never give-up!! :-) So, i'll interject in bold, again... This time from home with high-speed???

The Nehor wrote:I don't follow necessarily what his problem is. RM: Spong's "problem" is that he's had it up to his nostriles with folks broadly labeled "Fundamentalists" in his life-long carreer as an Episcopalian Priest/Bishop/Theologian who pushes the "Envelope"... He ordained the first woman priest in his church, or diocess--??? He is a present-day-reformer.

The idea that mankind is failing to meet the moral law we have inside of us is not really a theological creation. When the Apostles preached on the Day of Pentecost that there was salvation offered, no one asked what they were being saved from. They knew it. RM: Because they were conditioned by their indoctrination to accept the stories of Creation, the Fall, and their "Evil natures reqiring the rituals of blood/veggie sacrifice; as with the Scape-goat." They believed the lies of their religious heritage. No wonder "they knew" and didn't question. We, OTOH are obliged--i think--to question...

The focus by Christ on childish innocence is condemning. Children are genuinely happy in a way adults won't allow themselves to be. I think so many adults refuse to be happy because they honestly don't believe they deserve anything better. This is carefully masked with complaints about money and circumstances. Some happiness shines through occassionally but it's more acceptable if it comes while you're not in your right mind. So many drink to escape themselves. RM: Saddly there is some truth in what you say. Unfortunately, it is difficult, i imagine, to enjoy a lot of happiness IF one believes themselves to be... "...born in sin, and shapened in iniquity..." as taught by Christianism through the ages. Maybe why, "...they are an abomination..."???

I used to live under that cloud. Then I had a realization about what the Atonement was about. RM: Which is, as You understand it? It removed the dissonance of me trying to think I deserved happiness. I don't but God cared enough to give it to me anyways. RM: How about, "Happinenss IS your/our birth-right!"?? Because of that I can rejoice and go through life being happy like a spoiled child who gets everything he doesn't deserve while deliberately (but not frantically) trying to grow closer to deserving it. RM: I rejoice with you, but with a different thought in mind: As thinking feeling intelligent beings--made that way by "God"--we learn by experience--trial-&-error--our own and vicariously, that making good choices is better than making bad choices, as Jesus taught in The Mount Sermon.

"Wickedness never brings happiness." Unless one is REALLY screwed up. As many are, thinking they're not...
All my worries about worthiness and righteousness faded away. Paul said righteousness was as filthy rags, King Benjamin said that if we served perfectly we would still be unprofitable. RM: Paul said some strange stuff?? Think it's better to serve imperfectly than not to serve at all??? WE are THE best tools "God" has to steward the Universe, with our warts et al...

The great side-bonus is it starts to kill off pride and introduce real humility. The kind that makes you smile and walk lighter.


"The great side-bonus"...of knowing the truth...is as You say... without pride, arrogance or aggrandizement experiencing total GRATITUDE for life GRANTED without prejudice to ALL humanity.

I think 'that' is what Spong is about: De-mystifying religious thinking and its errors so that all humanity comes to a unity of faith in the "Two New Commandments" IMSCO. Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Huck, nice ta-see-ya again! Yes, Nehor has a kindliness hard not to apprecieate. I also appreciate that you found Spong severe in his "judgement" AND that you second read his assertions.

Pasted below, i think is a somewhat clear and consise thumb-nail of his views:

Over the next three weeks in this column, I intend to examine this familiar Christian idea that I regard today as a completely bankrupt way of understanding the Christian faith. In my opinion these atonement ideas have succeeded primarily in turning God into a child-abusing heavenly parent. They have also turned Jesus into being the ultimate, perhaps even the masochistic, victim of a sadistic father God. Furthermore when literalized, these ideas have turned ordinary Christians into people burdened by the weight of guilt that at best is immobilizing and at worst serves to create a religious justification for their own abuse of others. It had been primarily responsible, I believe, for the levels of anger that have infected Christian history, finding expression in the burning of heretics, anti-Semitism, religious wars, religious persecution, the Crusades and in the rampant homophobia that embraces so much of the Christian Church today. All of this arises out of that strange definition of humanity as so irreparably evil, that Jesus had to die to rescue us from our hopeless state. People who define themselves as evil, as chronic victims almost inevitably respond to the pain of that definition by victimizing others. These attitudes still infect Christian liturgy, expressing themselves in our hymns and prayers. Their constant recitation in typical church services feed the anger of fundamentalists who like to portray the ones not responsive to their message as bound for an eternity of suffering, while at the same time encouraging the rejection of all things religious by those caught up in the rising tide of secular humanism. Having made these grave charges let me now put content into this analysis.

Very early in Christian history, the idea developed that the death of Jesus must have had some ultimate significance. His crucifixion could not have been purposeless. It had to have been a pre-ordained act. As early as the mid fifties CE, in his letter to the Corinthians, Paul sought to give expression to this idea when he wrote "Jesus died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures." That is the earliest attempt we have to ascribe purpose to the cross. Those words, however, reveal a number of presuppositions that drive us deeply into the Jewish experience.

Paul is implying first that human life is by definition both fallen and evil, and second, that Jesus' death addresses that reality. Paul is here giving expression to an idea that lies deep in the mythology and history of the Jewish people. Mythology's primary purpose is to explain reality. In this instance the reality crying out to be explained was the presence of evil in God's good world. No one can deny the presence of evil. Human beings kill, steal, rape and abuse one another. Human beings go to war and torture their enemies. Even religion is used by human beings to justify the enormous evil that we do to those who question religious tenets. Human beings seem threatened by those who are different and act toward the different ones with dehumanizing hostility. Our victims have included people of different races, different religions, people who are mentally and physically impaired, albino people, left handed people and homosexual people. Evil is easy to document. Its source, however, is a subject of much debate.


I think "...evil...is...the...subject of much debate..." that we are attempting to come to grips with, in a way that "evil" can be seen not as the work of 'Satan' but as the product of ignorance in defiance of all that WAS at the base of Christianism as it WAS put forward by Jesus in "The Two New Commandments".

THEY are the FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity that have been smothered in "Fundamentalism" as creeded by Christian Radicals in the past century.

Guess it's up to the individual to choose "their" fundamentals??? Warm regards, Roger
_richardMdBorn
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

Roger wrote
THEY are the FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity that have been smothered in "Fundamentalism" as creeded by Christian Radicals in the past century.
On the contrary, it was the modernists who were the radicals. Wikipedia is frequently wrong, but it is accurate here in the describing the central points of fundamentalists:

• Inerrancy of the Scriptures
• The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
• The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamenta ... ristianity


These points, except for the fifth one with regard to pre-mil, have been held by most Christians throughout the ages.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Nehor, this is the 3rd time I've tried to respond and LOST the 1st two :-( Never give-up!! :-) So, I'll interject in bold, again... This time from home with high-speed???

The Nehor wrote:I don't follow necessarily what his problem is. RM: Spong's "problem" is that he's had it up to his nostriles with folks broadly labeled "Fundamentalists" in his life-long carreer as an Episcopalian Priest/Bishop/Theologian who pushes the "Envelope"... He ordained the first woman priest in his church, or diocess--??? He is a present-day-reformer.

The idea that mankind is failing to meet the moral law we have inside of us is not really a theological creation. When the Apostles preached on the Day of Pentecost that there was salvation offered, no one asked what they were being saved from. They knew it. RM: Because they were conditioned by their indoctrination to accept the stories of Creation, the Fall, and their "Evil natures reqiring the rituals of blood/veggie sacrifice; as with the Scape-goat." They believed the lies of their religious heritage. No wonder "they knew" and didn't question. We, OTOH are obliged--I think--to question...

The focus by Christ on childish innocence is condemning. Children are genuinely happy in a way adults won't allow themselves to be. I think so many adults refuse to be happy because they honestly don't believe they deserve anything better. This is carefully masked with complaints about money and circumstances. Some happiness shines through occassionally but it's more acceptable if it comes while you're not in your right mind. So many drink to escape themselves. RM: Saddly there is some truth in what you say. Unfortunately, it is difficult, I imagine, to enjoy a lot of happiness IF one believes themselves to be... "...born in sin, and shapened in iniquity..." as taught by Christianism through the ages. Maybe why, "...they are an abomination..."???

I used to live under that cloud. Then I had a realization about what the Atonement was about. RM: Which is, as You understand it? It removed the dissonance of me trying to think I deserved happiness. I don't but God cared enough to give it to me anyways. RM: How about, "Happinenss IS your/our birth-right!"?? Because of that I can rejoice and go through life being happy like a spoiled child who gets everything he doesn't deserve while deliberately (but not frantically) trying to grow closer to deserving it. RM: I rejoice with you, but with a different thought in mind: As thinking feeling intelligent beings--made that way by "God"--we learn by experience--trial-&-error--our own and vicariously, that making good choices is better than making bad choices, as Jesus taught in The Mount Sermon.

"Wickedness never brings happiness." Unless one is REALLY screwed up. As many are, thinking they're not...
All my worries about worthiness and righteousness faded away. Paul said righteousness was as filthy rags, King Benjamin said that if we served perfectly we would still be unprofitable. RM: Paul said some strange stuff?? Think it's better to serve imperfectly than not to serve at all??? WE are THE best tools "God" has to steward the Universe, with our warts et al...

The great side-bonus is it starts to kill off pride and introduce real humility. The kind that makes you smile and walk lighter.


"The great side-bonus"...of knowing the truth...is as You say... without pride, arrogance or aggrandizement experiencing total GRATITUDE for life GRANTED without prejudice to ALL humanity.

I think 'that' is what Spong is about: De-mystifying religious thinking and its errors so that all humanity comes to a unity of faith in the "Two New Commandments" IMSCO. Warm regards, Roger


Sorry, you lost your posts so many times....if I lose one I tend to chuck it and forget about it. Kudos for your perseverance.

The question regarding the sinfulness of man is a complex one. The question is did all those religions sacrifice and thus believe they were sinful because they were taught it (Korihor's viewpoint) or did they know it already and were grateful that there was a way out (Christian viewpoint)? I don't have a solution but I tend towards the latter having tried both. My main evidence is how badly people seem to not want to be happy. I see it in myself and others. Young children will rush off to play and forgive quickly. How many adults when they have a spare moment rush off to do what will make them genuinely happy?

The question of Christianity having taught people they were sinful and tying them down doesn't seem to work for me. I see little difference between people raised as athiests and those raised as Christians in this regard. Christianity offers an escape. That's what the whole thing is about. Those who latch onto the Law (a lot of LDS and other Christians) and try to live it without the Mercy of Christ will fall into one of two categories: either they will think they're working out a steady line of credit with God for their deeds and become insufferable and self-righteous and miss how far off the mark they are becoming obnoxious and possibly develop complexes from lying to themselves about their success or they realize they aren't living up to it and are convinced that they could if they had tried harder....they tend to fall into depression and despair. I don't know which is worse. Christ seemed to try to correct both, the former by pointing out that they were in fact failures and that he would help and the latter by offering hope.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

richardMdBorn wrote:Roger wrote
THEY are the FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity that have been smothered in "Fundamentalism" as creeded by Christian Radicals in the past century.
On the contrary, it was the modernists who were the radicals. Wikipedia is frequently wrong, but it is accurate here in the describing the central points of fundamentalists:

• Inerrancy of the Scriptures
• The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
• The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus
• The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamenta ... ristianity


These points, except for the fifth one with regard to pre-mil, have been held by most Christians throughout the ages.


Richard, thanks for the link. An interesting schematic... Little wonder for the confusion and discord. Oh well, it demonstrates sectarian gullibility over the past couple of centuries. On second thought maybe it demonstrates a spiritual restlessness in which truth will eventually prevail... I think that's a better summation.

Modernist radicals countered by Fundy Conservatives who radically declared Modernists as not being "Christian" because they (Ms) did not measure up by their (Fs) Fundamental Standards listed above. Seems the way it went...

Whatever the semantics, the schematic is less than one that leads to a simple understanding, and acceptance of "The Two New Commandments" IMSCO. OTOH, as i read most of the 'posts' here they seem more "Modernist" than not. That's encouraging... Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Nehor, thanks for your thoughts. You said:

The question regarding the sinfulness of man is a complex one. The question is did all those religions sacrifice and thus believe they were sinful because they were taught it (Korihor's viewpoint) or did they know it already and were grateful that there was a way out (Christian viewpoint)? I don't have a solution but I tend towards the latter having tried both. My main evidence is how badly people seem to not want to be happy. I see it in myself and others. Young children will rush off to play and forgive quickly. How many adults when they have a spare moment rush off to do what will make them genuinely happy?

RM: It is my understanding that infants have few, if any, instincts, except a startle instinct??? Humans, as different from other life forms, are subjects of nature/genetics and environment/nurture and are products thereof. Therefore we learn by being taught--generally speaking. I think as you suggest "a child", who has not been discouraged to act freely, is more spontaneous to joyful activity than one who is exposed to abuses, fears and negativities. Unfortunately, we can function and be relatively productive in a pretty sad state of disrepair. Made so more by 'nurture' than our 'nature'.

Thus our collective tendency to bolster failing egos with extrainious stuff; as warned against in the Mount Sermon. And, by adopting false and destructive habits as instructed by "...wolves in sheep's clothing..." Re-call how one must resist the "temptation" to: "...eat, drink, and be merry..."? Sad interpretation.

Korihor's story is very interesting. I just re-read at your suggestion. I wonder if he might have been Joseph Smith alter-ego? I think K was onto the truth that the BM folks were not ready for. Are we? There seems to be several conclusion-jumps made by his antagonists--mainly IF one does not "believe" they will automatically engage in evil-doings. No substantiation of that, in my experience. Atheists can be as 'good' as Theists, and vis-versa.


The question of Christianity having taught people they were sinful and tying them down doesn't seem to work for me. RM: Nor for me, and i hope for growing numbers. I see little difference between people raised as athiests and those raised as Christians in this regard. Christianity offers an escape. That's what the whole thing is about. Those who latch onto the Law (a lot of LDS and other Christians) and try to live it without the Mercy of Christ will fall into one of two categories: either they will think they're working out a steady line of credit with God for their deeds and become insufferable and self-righteous and miss how far off the mark they are becoming obnoxious and possibly develop complexes from lying to themselves about their success or they realize they aren't living up to it and are convinced that they could if they had tried harder....they tend to fall into depression and despair. I don't know which is worse. Christ seemed to try to correct both, the former by pointing out that they were in fact failures and that he would help and the latter by offering hope.


Good stuff. However, i don't think Christ pointed to the masses as failures on their own, BUT as being made so by the authoritive figures of their religion who Christ chastised as hypocrites, etc. As i read Spong, he is attempting the same: Calling religious teachers and leaders to task. As well they should be.

In the LDS Institution this is most difficult, as there is no easy mechanism for a member to discuss, or correspond, directly with a GA, or a member of the First Presidency. Too insulated as i have found. Any suggestions as to how i can do so, without starting at the local Constabulary, will be appreciated.

I have easier access to my Prime Minister :-) Warm rgards, Roger
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