Apostasy and authority

[_Jersey Girl]

Gaz, I have taken time to edit the chapter's 40+ verses into paragraph's. I hope you'll read it that way. Here is the story:

After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time [in that case], he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry [thy] bed.He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in [that] place. Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men.But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[_Jersey Girl]

And one more comment. Gaz, if you can find transparent claims in the Bible that God the father had a father, I would not challenge that concept. Here, you are using one verse, drawing it out of context and employing it to make a case for the concept of God the father having a father.

You seem to view the Bible as a work of literature with which to draw clues to Mormonism. I don't see it that way. If Mormonism constitutes the restoration of the primitive church, and the Bible one of it's scriptures, the Book of Mormon another gospel of Christ, why should there be need to find clues to begin with?

If you yourself had written John 5, what might the title of your chapter be called? Would you title it "God the Father had a father"? Or would you call it "Jesus responds to challenge of his healings at the Pools of Bethsaida?"

by the way, the pools with the 5 porches are archaeological fact.


Jersey Girl

[_Gazelam]

Luke 10:1 states that there were other seventy. In other words he is calling another set. Who were the first set?

[_Gazelam]

And one more comment. Gaz, if you can find transparent claims in the Bible that God the father had a father, I would not challenge that concept. Here, you are using one verse, drawing it out of context and employing it to make a case for the concept of God the father having a father.

You seem to view the Bible as a work of literature with which to draw clues to Mormonism. I don't see it that way. If Mormonism constitutes the restoration of the primitive church, and the Bible one of it's scriptures, the Book of Mormon another gospel of Christ, why should there be need to find clues to begin with?

If you yourself had written John 5, what might the title of your chapter be called? Would you title it "God the Father had a father"? Or would you call it "Jesus responds to challenge of his healings at the Pools of Bethsaida?"

by the way, the pools with the 5 porches are archaeological fact.


Jersey Girl

Jersey,

I like seeing the scriptures like that, puts them in a neat perspective.

It does not change however the fact that Christ states that he is following the example set by his Father.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And how did Christ have life in himself? He took his dead body and rose it from the dead. He resurrected himself, as did the Father. And how does this in any way lessen the role of the Father? Is Christ less of a God because he is a Son of a God? There is a pattern being followed, a pattern that we follow ourselves.

The chapter is of coarce Christ answering questions. But theres golden nuggets of the gospel found in his words.

[_Jersey Girl]

Luke 10:1 states that there were other seventy. In other words he is calling another set. Who were the first set?

It says that in the KJV. Try reading it in NIV.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

And one more comment. Gaz, if you can find transparent claims in the Bible that God the father had a father, I would not challenge that concept. Here, you are using one verse, drawing it out of context and employing it to make a case for the concept of God the father having a father.

You seem to view the Bible as a work of literature with which to draw clues to Mormonism. I don't see it that way. If Mormonism constitutes the restoration of the primitive church, and the Bible one of it's scriptures, the Book of Mormon another gospel of Christ, why should there be need to find clues to begin with?

If you yourself had written John 5, what might the title of your chapter be called? Would you title it "God the Father had a father"? Or would you call it "Jesus responds to challenge of his healings at the Pools of Bethsaida?"

by the way, the pools with the 5 porches are archaeological fact.


Jersey Girl

Jersey,

I like seeing the scriptures like that, puts them in a neat perspective.

It does not change however the fact that Christ states that he is following the example set by his Father.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And how did Christ have life in himself? He took his dead body and rose it from the dead. He resurrected himself, as did the Father. And how does this in any way lessen the role of the Father? Is Christ less of a God because he is a Son of a God? There is a pattern being followed, a pattern that we follow ourselves.

The chapter is of coarce Christ answering questions. But theres golden nuggets of the gospel found in his words.

I think you could find more golden nuggets if you were to read John starting at Chapter 1, Gaz.

Do you believe that Christ was present at creation and also involved in creation?

Jersey Girl

[_harmony]

I think you could find more golden nuggets if you were to read John starting at Chapter 1, Gaz.

Do you believe that Christ was present at creation and also involved in creation?

Jersey Girl

Temple endowed LDS believe that Christ was the God who created the earth, under the direction of Father.

[_Gazelam]

Do you believe that Christ was present at creation and also involved in creation?

Christ, acting under the direction of the Father, was and is the Creator of all things.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(see also D&C 38:1-4; 76:22-24; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:1-3; Moses 1; 2; 3.)

Christ was aided in this work by "many of the noble and great" spirit children of the Father. To these Christ stated "We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell." (Abr. 3:22-24)

This Earth was not the first of the Lord's creations. An infinate number of worlds have come rolling into existence at his command. Each is an earth; many are inhabited with his spirit children; each abides the particular law given to it; and each will play its part in the redemption, salvation, and exaltation of that infinate host of the children of an Almighty God. The Lord has said that his work and glory is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life for his children on all the inhabited worlds he has created. (Moses 1:27-40; 7:29-36; D&C 88:17-26.)

In the books of Moses and Genesis we have revealed accounts of the actual physical creation of the earth. The 2nd chapter of Moses and the first chapter of Genesis give the events which occured on the succesive creative days. (Ex. 20:8-11) Then the 3rd chapter of Moses and the 2nd chapter of Genesis - by way of interpolation, amplification, and parenthetical explanation - recount the added truth that all things were created "spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth."

There is no revealed account of the spirit creation, only this explanatory interpolation that all things had been created in heaven at a previous time. That this prior spirit creation occured long before the temporal or natural creation is evident from the fact that spirit men, men who themselves were before created spiritually, were participants in the natural creation. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, pp.72-78)

[_Gazelam]

Try reading it in NIV.

The NIV also bastardises everyone by declareing Christ to be the only Son of God as opposed to the only begotten.

I choose to ignore the NIV. on that bases alone. Try John 3:16 in the KJ, then read it in the NIV. We get disinherited.

[_CaliforniaKid]

The NIV translation there is based on a legitimate understanding of the Greek. They include the traditional translation, "only begotten," in a text note.