Lucretia MacEvil wrote:IF????? IF????? Whadaya mean by IF?
You can be sure Blixa was taught that. I was taught that. We were all taught that. Fight to the death rather than lose your virtue. Nobody has any repenting to do, that's just the way it was. Mormons teaching according to the light and knowledge they had been given.
I think Gaz would do well to reconsider calling a prophet to repentance. Even I remember that widespread teaching of President Kimball's from my youth.
Please site the talk.
"It would be better for your son or daughter to come home in a pinewood box than to lose their virtue"
At least since the 1940's. Stigma and lost temporal virtue cannot be trumped by repentance or even the victim with an innocent and tender heart.
Someone will dig it up, Gaz (But you can push that through the hole in the floor too).
The members that said this really offended me.
I have heard the quote you sighted before, and your useing it out of context.
Stigma and lost temporal virtue cannot be trumped by repentance or even the victim with an innocent and tender heart.
Bologna
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Blixa wrote:That was presented as having as dire a consequence as if one had willingly had sex (in other words, you were "ruined.")
I'm just talking about the way things were presented to me by various Sunday School, Primary, MIA, and Seminary teachers, and Bishops. You can read reference to this in my "so-called exit story" that I post in my MD blog.
If anyone taught that to you, they have alot of repenting to do.
IF????? IF????? Whadaya mean by IF?
You can be sure Blixa was taught that. I was taught that. We were all taught that. Fight to the death rather than lose your virtue. Nobody has any repenting to do, that's just the way it was. Mormons teaching according to the light and knowledge they had been given.
(Putting on my "Juliann" hat)
You silly girls. That was obviously not doctrine. Prophets aren't infallible and they often speak their opinion. You are under no obligation to blieve them. How could anyone believe the things they are taught in church by teachers is church doctrine? I know you were propbably only 14 when you were taught this, but still, you should've known better. Sheesh.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:IF????? IF????? Whadaya mean by IF?
You can be sure Blixa was taught that. I was taught that. We were all taught that. Fight to the death rather than lose your virtue. Nobody has any repenting to do, that's just the way it was. Mormons teaching according to the light and knowledge they had been given.
I think Gaz would do well to reconsider calling a prophet to repentance. Even I remember that widespread teaching of President Kimball's from my youth.
Please site the talk.
He might be referring to Kimball's book, The Miracle of Forgiveness (also known as It's a Miracle If You're Forgiven). If you think that teaching can be narrowed down to one little talk, you're living in fantasy land. It was taught in every Mutual in the church. Your ignorance is astounding.
Lucretia MacEvil wrote: He might be referring to Kimball's book, The Miracle of Forgiveness (also known as It's a Miracle If You're Forgiven). If you think that teaching can be narrowed down to one little talk, you're living in fantasy land. It was taught in every Mutual in the church. Your ignorance is astounding.
My thinking is that the editors at Deseret Book lacked the backbone to tell President Kimball how insensitive to the plight of rape victims that quote of his sounded, when they were initially proofing it for publication. Perhaps, they were fearful that they would not be forgiven for pointing that out.
I was taught growing up that if I saw a rape in progress even if it cost me my life I was to do all in my power to stop it. I still believe that. I just hope that if the situation comes up I have the courage to keep to my conviction.
Is that wrong? Is it wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I was taught growing up that if I saw a rape in progress even if it cost me my life I was to do all in my power to stop it. I still believe that. I just hope that if the situation comes up I have the courage to keep to my conviction.
Is that wrong? Is it wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist?
Is this a serious question? No, it's not wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist, but it is wrong to tell her to fight to the death rather than lose her most precious gift. I hope that if you ever hear that in church nowadays that you will do all in your power to stop it.
The Nehor wrote:I was taught growing up that if I saw a rape in progress even if it cost me my life I was to do all in my power to stop it. I still believe that. I just hope that if the situation comes up I have the courage to keep to my conviction.
Is that wrong? Is it wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist?
Is this a serious question? No, it's not wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist, but it is wrong to tell her to fight to the death rather than lose her most precious gift. I hope that if you ever hear that in church nowadays that you will do all in your power to stop it.
Why is that wrong?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Ladies, I'm all for women fighting off an attacker. But if you're intent on doing so, do yourself a favor and learn to fight. Also learn that there are certain situations where you can't fight, and as bad as it sounds, loosing your "precious gift" isn't worth your life. Instead, in a situation where you cannot fight, keep as calm as you can and concentrate on details about your assailant so you can aid Law Enforcements in catching the prick.
If you do fight, remember to maintain situational awarenss. Look around the area and spot things you can use as weapons or distractions. Also, remember to make as much noise as you can in order to alert bystanders who might come to your aid. Your friend is time, as the longer you can hold the assailent off, the greater chance that someone will come to your aid or the assailant will decide that you aren't worth the hassle.
If you're attacked in an area where there isn't any chance of a bystander coming to your aid, and you do choose to fight, then all I can tell you is this... Don't hesitate, don't show mercy. Fight as hard as you can and fight with the intent to deprive your assailant of their life. After they're dead you can whine about "oh noes, I killed someone", but at least you will be alive to do so. Chances are, in a situation where you are utterly alone, the assailant planned to kill you anyway. Kill them first, kill them hard, and let the cops sort it out after the fact.
Also, look into your local and state laws about concealed carry permits. If allowed, buy a gun, train with it, and carry it at all times as allowed. Also, get a can of defensive spray, not that cayanne pepper crap, but some real CS/CN spray with an ink marker (Pepper Spray will just piss the assailant off. CS/CN will make them wish you'd just gone ahead and shot them instead). Look into self-defense courses with a qualified instructor (Forget that wussy stuff they teach at the Y or whatever chop-socky kung-fu BS. Find a place with an NIJ certified instructor). Learn the Use Of Force Laws of your state and city.
Above all, maintain situational awareness. A lot of situations could have been avioded in the first place by not doing stupid things. Aviod poorly lit areas and travel with at least one other person. Criminals are predators and they are looking for a weak, helpless, and lone victem to prey on. Don't be that person.
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:IF????? IF????? Whadaya mean by IF?
You can be sure Blixa was taught that. I was taught that. We were all taught that. Fight to the death rather than lose your virtue. Nobody has any repenting to do, that's just the way it was. Mormons teaching according to the light and knowledge they had been given.
I think Gaz would do well to reconsider calling a prophet to repentance. Even I remember that widespread teaching of President Kimball's from my youth.
Please site the talk.
"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." - Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196
A few things to note:
According to President Kimball, being raped means that you have "lost" your chastity and "once given or taken it can never be regained."
Putting aside whether it's dangerous to try to fight off a rapist, the last sentence again equates being raped with losing your virtue. So, if you don't fight off your rapist, you have lost your virtue. How much is enough fighting? Say you fight him off and then he knocks you out, but you don't die. Too bad: lost virtue.