The Real Reason I Left

[_The Nehor]

IF????? IF????? Whadaya mean by IF?

You can be sure Blixa was taught that. I was taught that. We were all taught that. Fight to the death rather than lose your virtue. Nobody has any repenting to do, that's just the way it was. Mormons teaching according to the light and knowledge they had been given.

I think Gaz would do well to reconsider calling a prophet to repentance. Even I remember that widespread teaching of President Kimball's from my youth.

Please site the talk.

"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

A few things to note:

According to President Kimball, being raped means that you have "lost" your chastity and "once given or taken it can never be regained."

Putting aside whether it's dangerous to try to fight off a rapist, the last sentence again equates being raped with losing your virtue. So, if you don't fight off your rapist, you have lost your virtue. How much is enough fighting? Say you fight him off and then he knocks you out, but you don't die. Too bad: lost virtue.

I have never met a rape victim that didn't think that their attacker took something from them. I don't see how Kimball is off. Yes, it wasn't their fault but the consequences are real.

[_Runtu]

I have never met a rape victim that didn't think that their attacker took something from them. I don't see how Kimball is off. Yes, it wasn't their fault but the consequences are real.

Of course rape victims lose something. But what they don't lose is their chastity or virtue. I know church members who have been raped who struggled over this, feeling guilty because they were now tainted or had lost their virtue. One of my cousins attempted suicide more than once because she felt unworthy and unclean as a result of a rape when she was 12 years old.

I feel really strongly about this, but in my opinion, this and other teachings in The Miracle of Forgiveness have caused unnecessary guilt and feelings of worthlessness. The message is clear: if you get raped and you aren't dead, you bear part of the blame.

[_Blixa]

I was taught growing up that if I saw a rape in progress even if it cost me my life I was to do all in my power to stop it. I still believe that. I just hope that if the situation comes up I have the courage to keep to my conviction.

Is that wrong? Is it wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist?

Is this a serious question? No, it's not wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist, but it is wrong to tell her to fight to the death rather than lose her most precious gift. I hope that if you ever hear that in church nowadays that you will do all in your power to stop it.

Why is that wrong?

Are you kidding, Nehor? A rapist gets off on violence, not sex. Resistance can add fuel to the "flame" and get you a bigger beating or death.

Coffee's sermon is sound: do what you have to do to survive, if possible try to note details that will help prosecute the guy later, but everything is secondary to survival.

[_Blixa]

Also, as per nearly everyone else here, I heard this "rape talk" many times in church, but the one instance I remember most clearly was during an MIA slumber party at the Bishop's house. I thought it was just a regular, nice little MIA social thing (hey, they actually had fun activities back in my day). The Bishop's daughter was in my Mutual class, so I didn't think it was necessarily a "Bishop thing." Surprise! After we were all in our nighties and P.J.'s who comes down to the basement? Mr. Smarmy Dentist Half-Wit, oh, sorry, the Anointed of the Lord, Our Judge in Israel.

He tells us that this is a surprise fireside or some special lesson deal, and launches into the most squrim-inducing guilt fest made 10 times worse by the fact that he's in a business suit and we're in our nightclothes huddled in sleeping bags. Wanna know what else I learned that night? That girls can masturbate. Yep. Up until then, I thought it was just something boys did. But, turns out, we got the power, too! However, its one of those sins you can never be forgiven for.

Also, if you're walking down the street and a guy jumps out from behind a bush and rapes you you better hope he kills you, too, because how awful would it be to live with the knowledge that you'd forever lost your most precious posession which was your future husband's by right?

Everytime I heard that talk it was always the same scenario: some guy (sometimes he was specified as "black,") jumping out from bushes. Forget that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim...never did we hear about being out on a date and having some elder or other alledgedly "nice guy" assault you, nope, it was always the Big Bad Wolf.

[_The Nehor]

Also, as per nearly everyone else here, I heard this "rape talk" many times in church, but the one instance I remember most clearly was during an MIA slumber party at the Bishop's house. I thought it was just a regular, nice little MIA social thing (hey, they actually had fun activities back in my day). The Bishop's daughter was in my Mutual class, so I didn't think it was necessarily a "Bishop thing." Surprise! After we were all in our nighties and P.J.'s who comes down to the basement? Mr. Smarmy Dentist Half-Wit, oh, sorry, the Anointed of the Lord, Our Judge in Israel.

He tells us that this is a surprise fireside or some special lesson deal, and launches into the most squrim-inducing guilt fest made 10 times worse by the fact that he's in a business suit and we're in our nightclothes huddled in sleeping bags. Wanna know what else I learned that night? That girls can masturbate. Yep. Up until then, I thought it was just something boys did. But, turns out, we got the power, too! However, its one of those sins you can never be forgiven for.

Also, if you're walking down the street and a guy jumps out from behind a bush and rapes you you better hope he kills you, too, because how awful would it be to live with the knowledge that you'd forever lost your most precious posession which was your future husband's by right?

Everytime I heard that talk it was always the same scenario: some guy (sometimes he was specified as "black,") jumping out from bushes. Forget that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim...never did we hear about being out on a date and having some elder or other alledgedly "nice guy" assault you, nope, it was always the Big Bad Wolf.

That is different. I remember the Bishop telling an Aaronic Priesthood gathering that he entirely trusted us to protect the girl we were dating from 'other guys'. He was more worried about us protecting them from ourselves.

[_Runtu]

Also, as per nearly everyone else here, I heard this "rape talk" many times in church, but the one instance I remember most clearly was during an MIA slumber party at the Bishop's house. I thought it was just a regular, nice little MIA social thing (hey, they actually had fun activities back in my day). The Bishop's daughter was in my Mutual class, so I didn't think it was necessarily a "Bishop thing." Surprise! After we were all in our nighties and P.J.'s who comes down to the basement? Mr. Smarmy Dentist Half-Wit, oh, sorry, the Anointed of the Lord, Our Judge in Israel.

He tells us that this is a surprise fireside or some special lesson deal, and launches into the most squrim-inducing guilt fest made 10 times worse by the fact that he's in a business suit and we're in our nightclothes huddled in sleeping bags. Wanna know what else I learned that night? That girls can masturbate. Yep. Up until then, I thought it was just something boys did. But, turns out, we got the power, too! However, its one of those sins you can never be forgiven for.

Also, if you're walking down the street and a guy jumps out from behind a bush and rapes you you better hope he kills you, too, because how awful would it be to live with the knowledge that you'd forever lost your most precious posession which was your future husband's by right?

Everytime I heard that talk it was always the same scenario: some guy (sometimes he was specified as "black,") jumping out from bushes. Forget that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim...never did we hear about being out on a date and having some elder or other alledgedly "nice guy" assault you, nope, it was always the Big Bad Wolf.

I'm glad I haven't heard that stuff being taught in church in many years. Why is it so difficult to understand what a destructive teaching that is?

[_The Nehor]

Also, as per nearly everyone else here, I heard this "rape talk" many times in church, but the one instance I remember most clearly was during an MIA slumber party at the Bishop's house. I thought it was just a regular, nice little MIA social thing (hey, they actually had fun activities back in my day). The Bishop's daughter was in my Mutual class, so I didn't think it was necessarily a "Bishop thing." Surprise! After we were all in our nighties and P.J.'s who comes down to the basement? Mr. Smarmy Dentist Half-Wit, oh, sorry, the Anointed of the Lord, Our Judge in Israel.

He tells us that this is a surprise fireside or some special lesson deal, and launches into the most squrim-inducing guilt fest made 10 times worse by the fact that he's in a business suit and we're in our nightclothes huddled in sleeping bags. Wanna know what else I learned that night? That girls can masturbate. Yep. Up until then, I thought it was just something boys did. But, turns out, we got the power, too! However, its one of those sins you can never be forgiven for.

Also, if you're walking down the street and a guy jumps out from behind a bush and rapes you you better hope he kills you, too, because how awful would it be to live with the knowledge that you'd forever lost your most precious posession which was your future husband's by right?

Everytime I heard that talk it was always the same scenario: some guy (sometimes he was specified as "black,") jumping out from bushes. Forget that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim...never did we hear about being out on a date and having some elder or other alledgedly "nice guy" assault you, nope, it was always the Big Bad Wolf.

I'm glad I haven't heard that stuff being taught in church in many years. Why is it so difficult to understand what a destructive teaching that is?

In many ways it was the societal norm. I don't remember where I found them but I watched a bunch of sex-ed films made by churches, the school system, and other agencies to teach people about sex. A wild ride.

[_Mr. Coffee]

Is this a serious question? No, it's not wrong to tell a woman to fight a rapist, but it is wrong to tell her to fight to the death rather than lose her most precious gift. I hope that if you ever hear that in church nowadays that you will do all in your power to stop it.

Why is that wrong?

Are you kidding, Nehor? A rapist gets off on violence, not sex. Resistance can add fuel to the "flame" and get you a bigger beating or death.

Ok, let me couch this in tactical terms...

If the rapist senario takes place in an area where there are people who could hear you struggling with an assailant, then fight, fight hard, and make a lot of noise.

If in a rape senario where there aren't any bystanders in earshot, then you have to take into consideration two factors.

1. What is the likelihood that you will survive the encounter is you are passive and allow the assailant to take what they want? This again ties into situational awareness. Is the assailant armed, if so, with what? How violent is the assailant's advances? Are there any routes of escape and can you outrun your assailant? If faced with an armed assailant who uses violence as a first resort and are without any escape routes, chances are, you are dead meat anyway, so you might want think about fighting now.

2. Are you physically fit enough or good enough at fighting to have a reasonable chance of fending off the assailant? If not, you're probably just going to piss the assailant off in the unlikely chance that they only wanted to rape you and not rape/murder you.

So it's really a cost benifit analysis. Will fighting increase your chances of surviving the encounter or will they lessen it? Are you even capible of offering resistance?

Coffee's sermon is sound: do what you have to do to survive, if possible try to note details that will help prosecute the guy later, but everything is secondary to survival.

Of course my advice is sound. I've got about two decades of experience with the subject of combat and something I've learned is that you choose your fights carefully in order to maximix your combat effectiveness.


On a side note, I'd laugh my ass off if someone tried to rape my girlfriend. The rapist would end up with his guts on the ground... Ladies, carry a knife, something in a folder with a 3in-4in blade. Let the guy in close, then make a lateral incision just under his navel and give him a firm push. Try not to gag to much at the sight of what falls out.

For a good knife, I personally endorse and carry Emerson's Super CQC-7 or Emerson's Commander line of combat folders. Extremely tough, reliable, and they hold an edge you can shave with.

[_Runtu]

The bottom line is that one's "virtue" can never been taken or stolen. If someone does something to you, it's their fault, not yours.

[_Mr. Coffee]

The bottom line is that one's "virtue" can never been taken or stolen. If someone does something to you, it's their fault, not yours.

Exactly. Anyone that blames the victem for what happened to them needs a swift kick in the arse.