Why We Need Religion

[_The Nehor]

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that without the gospel I would be prone to all manner of wickedness. For behold, just yesterday I attended a session at the local excercise establishment. While attending to my excercises, I witnessed exceeding displays of physical sexuality amongst both the male and female patrons. Scantily clad bodies rippling with masculinity performed bench presses and deep squats while surrouonded by exposed cleavages and bouncing bosoms on the treadmills. These immoral displays caused the worldy desires within me to stir. Had it not been for the hymns which I keep strategically stored in my short term memory for such emergencies, I fear I would not have been able to control the desire to self fornicate myself in the locker room shower. The hymn I chose to sing silently within my head was "Put your shoulder to the wheel." This sacred hymn kept my mind focused on the task at hand, which was to excercise my muscles, not my worldy passions. I barely escaped this close encounter with my chastity intact, only because I have the gospel in my life. Without the gospel, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would live my life as a chronic masturbator.

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Boyd K. Packer

A glimpse into the mind of whoever's puppet this is. What is there? Sex, Sex, Sex, Sex, Sex, and can't envision that anyone else might not be that obsessed.

[_ajax18]

Yeah, Moksha's good. It isn't the label one wears, or flaunts, it's their behaviour in everyday situations that counts in the Universe--life, theirs & others'. There are crazies in all camps that discredit the sane in their midst.

IMSCO, character & the consequence of that disposition, has little to do with being Theist or Atheist. It has to do with respect of others as of one's self, and reverence for all life. No one can escape the truths of the Mount Sermon. Whether the mythology (miracles) are taken to heart is irrelevant... The Two New Commandnments, whatever one's understanding of the word, "God", have as yet really not been put to the test... Warm regards, Roger

Roger I respect you trying to build bridges here, but I have to disagree. If the mythology isn't true the sermon on the mount loses a lot of its power to motivate people. I love reading what Jesus was purported to have said because it seems like quite often He refers to the next life. Treasure in heavan, gain the whole world but loose his own soul...That was a huge part of the gospel and in my view an indispensible part. The earthly results of how Jesus lived his life were not good. Take away His glorious resurrection and it just doesn't add up anymore. To me the sermon isn't worth much if the mythology doesn't back it up. If the mythology is not there, I would simply calculate that it's just not in my best interest to do what He's asking in that sermon.

What gets me is that some atheist seem worse than the Mormon Church in responding to me on this point. They claim I'm just a bad person. If insisting on having an adequate reason to do what you do makes you a bad person, than I guess I am. Honestly though, I believe everyone needs reasons, especially when it gets difficult. People that claim to do the right thing just because they've evolved to cooperate probably are just as prone to do evil things because of their same animal ancestry.

[_ajax18]

Dear Sister Blixa,

Thank you for your question. Now, I have to be somewhat cautious here because not all among us are disciples of your caliber and the matter of doctrine you imply is a deep one. Yes, there may very well be a "darkening" that besets humanity in a literal way should the gospel be taken from the earth. Let's keep that between you and me for now because I'm not sure others are prepared to understand it.

Feel free to drop by my office any time and I'd be happy to consult the scriptures together on this matter.

Can I come too? Just tell me to close my ears if you start justifying illegal immigration. I'm still a little ticked at you guys for doing that, but I understand your position. If you're up there among the financial elite as you are, than illegal immigration is a God send. These blasted white workers just don't understand how bad we need good cheap labor. You might want to consider instituting a no rehire policy to make sure you keep the new immigrants and unsuccesful Americans joined to "land." High turnover rates aren't good for business but giving them a raise in hopes that they stay is a far scarrier proposition indeed.

You know everyone turning brown within a few hundred years may not be the disaster some might think. The porn industry could take a huge hit. Would that be good for the Church?

[_Roger Morrison]

Ajax, thanks for your response. I'll inject in bold:

Yeah, Moksha's good. It isn't the label one wears, or flaunts, it's their behaviour in everyday situations that counts in the Universe--life, theirs & others'. There are crazies in all camps that discredit the sane in their midst.

IMSCO, character & the consequence of that disposition, has little to do with being Theist or Atheist. It has to do with respect of others as of one's self, and reverence for all life. No one can escape the truths of the Mount Sermon. Whether the mythology (miracles) are taken to heart is irrelevant... The Two New Commandnments, whatever one's understanding of the word, "God", have as yet really not been put to the test... Warm regards, Roger

Roger I respect you trying to build bridges here, but I have to disagree. If the mythology isn't true the sermon on the mount loses a lot of its power to motivate people. I love reading what Jesus was purported to have said because it seems like quite often He refers to the next life. RM: Yes it does seem to... Treasure in heavan, gain the whole world but loose his own soul... RM: We have to understand Jesus was talking to folks who were raised with that understanding... That was a huge part of the gospel and in my view an indispensible part. RM: And so through the ages. OTOH, does such a leaning do for an individual, or group, what a more 'mortal' understanding could do? The earthly results of how Jesus lived his life were not good. RM: That's debateable... IMSCO, Jesus left a legacy 2,000 years ago that is yet to be fully understood. Consequently it cannot, as yet be fully implemented... Take away His glorious resurrection and it just doesn't add up anymore. RM: You're correct IF one doesn't understand the equation... To me the sermon isn't worth much if the mythology doesn't back it up. RM: Right again, IF/WHEN "mythology"--'miracles'--is all that folks see in Jesus' life that are awesome... If the mythology is not there, I would simply calculate that it's just not in my best interest to do what He's asking in that sermon. RM: From your perspective... However, by my own experience, and when i 'see' the results in individual, and group, lives of those who understand & apply the Universal principles that Jesus taught, then i'm confirmed that one cannot defy the laws upon which "blessings-are-predicated" and expect to be rewarded for their errors. Whether the errors were/are intentional, or in ignorance is irrelevant.

What gets me is that some atheist seem worse than the Mormon Church in responding to me on this point. They claim I'm just a bad person. If insisting on having an adequate reason to do what you do makes you a bad person, than I guess I am. RM: Ain't no bad folks, only folks sometimes make bad mistakes :-) Honestly though, I believe everyone needs reasons, especially when it gets difficult. RM: True. Problem is reasoning is not always valid and well founded. People that claim to do the right thing just because they've evolved to cooperate probably are just as prone to do evil things because of their same animal ancestry. RM: Non perfect. But knowledge, awareness & understanding do help in the decision making process...

IMSCO, both Atheists and Theists are too often both offensive AND defensive folks who miss the point that "God" worship, engaged in or attacked, is counter productive to advancing humanity beyond its "animal ancestry", to use your term... Warm regards, Roger

[_Tommy]

Brother Ajax,

The Lord is mindful of your trials and is patient in this time when you have questions concerning matters pertaining to his kingdom. Perhaps I can help. You write,

If you're up there among the financial elite as you are, than illegal immigration is a God send. These blasted white workers just don't understand how bad we need good cheap labor.

The Lord is mindful of the excesses of our generation. He is a frugle God. And he has provided an example for the world within his kingdom. You may inquire among those who work in his Church Office Building as to their compensation for their service to him. I believe we have one or two former church employees posting on this board. I think you will find that most of these employees are in fact of a complexion similar to the governing brethren of the church yet their compensation is similar to that which you speak concerning our Lamanite brethren who seek a better life across their border.

[_ajax18]

IMSCO, both Atheists and Theists are too often both offensive AND defensive folks who miss the point that "God" worship, engaged in or attacked, is counter productive to advancing humanity beyond its "animal ancestry", to use your term... Warm regards, Roger

Yeah, you're exactly right there. Maybe that's what you were saying in the first place but it helped me to express that becaue I think you see my concern as well completely giving up on the myth.

[_ajax18]

The Lord is mindful of the excesses of our generation. He is a frugle God. And he has provided an example for the world within his kingdom. You may inquire among those who work in his Church Office Building as to their compensation for their service to him. I believe we have one or two former church employees posting on this board. I think you will find that most of these employees are in fact of a complexion similar to the governing brethren of the church yet their compensation is similar to that which you speak concerning our Lamanite brethren who seek a better life across their border.

I just had an epiphany and wondered what you would think Pres. Monson. Maybe when we deport people, we should send them home with a lifetime supply of free condoms. Perhaps this will make life better on their side of the border? Have you inquired of the Lord on this matter?

[_ajax18]

And so through the ages. OTOH, does such a leaning do for an individual, or group, what a more 'mortal' understanding could do?

That's debateable... IMSCO, Jesus left a legacy 2,000 years ago that is yet to be fully understood.

Would you be willing to debate it for me because I just don't see how. Jesus's first obligation in my opinion should have been to himself. How can being crucified be a good result?

You're correct IF one doesn't understand the equation...

Could you enlighten me. What am I missing that would make the ends justify the means for you, even in the absence of all the mythology. What exactly was he really working for anyway? It seems like even the very purpose of life itself is steeped in the mythology.

If the mythology is not there, I would simply calculate that it's just not in my best interest to do what He's asking in that sermon.[b] RM: From your perspective... However, by my own experience, and when I 'see' the results in individual, and group, lives of those who understand & apply the Universal principles that Jesus taught, then I'm confirmed that one cannot defy the laws upon which "blessings-are-predicated" and expect to be rewarded for their errors. Whether the errors were/are intentional, or in ignorance is irrelevant.

What was the blessing for being run out of town, humiliated, abused and suffering an agonizing death? You're not saying Jesus misapplied the law are you? What was his blessing. From an earthly perspective, I don't see one.

IMSCO, both Atheists and Theists are too often both offensive AND defensive folks who miss the point that "God" worship, engaged in or attacked, is counter productive to advancing humanity beyond its "animal ancestry", to use your term... Warm regards, Roger

Couldn't agree more and just to be clear you seem to be one of the better people I've interacted with. Just interested if you have any answers, not trying to prove my point or beat my chest in victory on an argument.

[_ajax18]

The Lord is mindful of the excesses of our generation. He is a frugle God. And he has provided an example for the world within his kingdom. You may inquire among those who work in his Church Office Building as to their compensation for their service to him. I believe we have one or two former church employees posting on this board. I think you will find that most of these employees are in fact of a complexion similar to the governing brethren of the church yet their compensation is similar to that which you speak concerning our Lamanite brethren who seek a better life across their border.

So you've found a way to exploit American born workers as well as immigrant laborers. I must commend you for that. I haven't seen such control in all of corporate America. Did I ever indicate that the Church spreads the wealth? I'm talking about you President Monson. How much do you make? Perhaps with your salary and job I'd need religion as well. It seems to have been a wonderful career path for you. The Lord seems to have seen fit to bless you exceedingly, above nearly all other Church employees, and oddly enough He's blessed you right out of the pockets of those who earn so much less than you. How does that idea of last shall be first and first shall be last fit into LDS doctrine on such an issue?

You really know how to drive a bargain. I admit that I heard other people doubt when you guys started claiming to be literal descendants of the House of Israel. But I assure you I never did. From the first time I did business with you and some of your members out in that wonderful happy Salt Lake Valley, I knew I was dealing with true genetic Israelites. Maybe that's why to this day I would ten times prefer to do business with a 1950s New York Jew than an LDS man from Provo UT.

[_Roger Morrison]

Ajax, you said, "Just interested if you have any answers, not trying to prove my point or beat my chest in victory on an argument."[/quote] I like that. Nor am i wanting "to beat my chest..." So i'll try with answers in bold:

And so through the ages. OTOH, does such a leaning do for an individual, or group, what a more 'mortal' understanding could do?

Ajax: The earthly results of how Jesus lived his life were not good...

That's debateable... IMSCO, Jesus left a legacy 2,000 years ago that is yet to be fully understood.

Would you be willing to debate it for me because I just don't see how. Jesus's first obligation in my opinion should have been to himself. How can being cruc/ified be a good result?

RM: What i'm suggesting is by the efforts of Jesus (how he lived) we have "Chritianity" corrupted as it is.

You're correct IF one doesn't understand the equation...

Could you enlighten me. What am I missing that would make the ends justify the means for you, even in the absence of all the mythology. What exactly was he really working for anyway? It seems like even the very purpose of life itself is steeped in the mythology.

RM: Jesus was/is little different than any other reformer/scientist who "works" to improve the state of "things". Most pay an extreme price for their efforts--Ghandi, Mandella, Copernicus, Marx, Socrates, MLKJr, Joan-of-Arc... I think we more common folks often don't understand the "what" and "why" of those who sacrifice themselves for 'truth & justice'. But the fact that THEY do is what moves humanity forward. For THAT i'm grateful...cuz i live better...

If the mythology is not there, I would simply calculate that it's just not in my best interest to do what He's asking in that sermon. RM: From your perspective... However, by my own experience, and when I 'see' the results in individual, and group, lives of those who understand & apply the Universal principles that Jesus taught, then I'm confirmed that one cannot defy the laws upon which "blessings-are-predicated" and expect to be rewarded for their errors. Whether the errors were/are intentional, or in ignorance is irrelevant.

What was the blessing for being run out of town, humiliated, abused and suffering an agonizing death? You're not saying Jesus misapplied the law are you? What was his blessing. From an earthly perspective, I don't see one.

[b]RM: Possibly i didn't connect the 'dots' properly: Try this, '...can't defy laws upon which "blessings AND cursings are predicated"...??? Jesus, as with many others brought BLESSINGS (knowledge) to the lives of others. They however, were in defiance of THE status-quo of THEIR time. Leading, generally speaking, to being 'cursed' for their efforts... Defy 'authority' at your peril. Scientists depend upon 'laws-predicated'. We just have to seperated reality from fantacy to reap "eathly/mortal" benefits. If not in this life--NEVER!!!

IMSCO, both Atheists and Theists are too often both offensive AND defensive folks who miss the point that "God" worship, engaged in or attacked, is counter productive to advancing humanity beyond its "animal ancestry", to use your term... Warm regards, Roger

Couldn't agree more and just to be clear you seem to be one of the better people I've interacted with.

Thank you! I think the same of You. You seem to be honest, thoughtful, and with no malice... I hope i clarified somewhat... Warm regards, Roger