The Egyptian Test

Post by **_Runtu** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:48 pm

CaliforniaKid wrote:3) If you aren't juliann, then you're her soulmate. You two should get married.

That is all.

-CK

I thought Chaos's last post seemed like Juliann forgot to log in as herself, as there wasn't moderating in the post. But the writing style and content were unmistakable. Honestly, I'm glad Juliann posts over there, and I'm even kinda glad she pores over this board to see what horrible stuff we're saying. In some ways, it's that kind of stuff that makes MADB more interesting.

Post by **_dartagnan** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:14 pm

Chaos is without a doubt Juliann. I mean let's be serious. The two are identical in method, approach and stupidity. The minute Chaos said we should leave it to the "experts" was a dead give-away. Also, the fact that Juliann is actually participating on the thread as "Juliann" is just another indicator - she loves to do this sock puppetry game to back her self up.

That thread over there had me laughing all the way through. Nothing has changed over there in two years. They are too stupid to realize that once they make these appeals to authority in such a manner that they essentially undermine their mission and discredit their entire database of LDS apologetics. Apologetics which is, for the most part, provided by a bunch of amateurs who are "experts" in things from wood-saw art to filmography. None of them have any "required training" in the "required fields" to discuss the issues, but thier credentials somehow mean nothing when they choose to develop arguments to defend the Book of Abraham. You see, that's OK. It is only when people criticize bad apologetics that credibility becomes the utmost importance to them. Only Juliann is this stupid. She still doesn't get it. And Gee is an absolute fool who is going to be held accountable whether he likes it or not. That lame legal threat was the last straw for me. I am thinking of dedicating an entire website to the incompetence of BYU scholars. Sue me if you dare!

There is certainly a truckload of material for which they all refuse to even respond to.

And Gee wants to imply people are hiding behind pseudonyms? Like his buddy DCP admittedly hides behind them at RFM? Who is hiding from his critics? Who is hiding behind an email? Who refuses to address criticisms openly? His ridiculous and irrelevant "test" is the kind of thing one would expect from an idiot who simply doesn't understand the issues involved. Egyptology has close to nothing to do with proving or disproving the BoB as the Book of Abraham's source, since Gee doesn't believe it is. Egyptology is his smoke-screen in the meantime. It will be an required field of expertise once everyone agrees on the source for the Book of Abraham. But since Gee argues the source doesn't exist anymore, Egyptology is irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence that can be deduced and analyzed concerning the KEP and its relationship to the Book of Abraham, without any knowledge of Egyptian. Reasonable conclusions can be made without any knowledge of Egyptian. But Gee is hoping the amateurs don't see this, and fall for his arrogant rant that attempts to belittle anyone who dares speak critically on the matter who doesn't have training in that particular field.

And what the hell was that comment about when he referred to critics who have never been to college? How does he know? Why would it even matter? Mike Parker said he never had any formal education beyond high school but that didn't stop the talking heads at FAIR and FARMS from welcoming his "research" with open arms.

Post by **_Runtu** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:38 pm

I wasn't trying to bash Juliann, but yeah, that was obviously her. I still don't see the point of this "challenge," but then I'm kinda slow. But I did go to grad school (and finished).

Post by **_The Dude** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:56 pm

Runtu wrote:I thought Chaos's last post seemed like Juliann forgot to log in as herself, as there wasn't moderating in the post. But the writing style and content were unmistakable.

Incredible.

This is reminding me of the time Brent Metcalfe left the board for good when a mod (Juliann/Dunamis, wasn't it? ...can't remember) called him "childish".

Post by **_Who Knows** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:59 pm

William Schryver wrote:Well, considering the fact that I have his presentation on video, I can tell you quite confidently that you're mistaken. You simply misunderstood what he was saying. He actually said "people believe the two ink theory is dead ..." and then went on to explain why it isn't. Anyway, it's not that big of a deal. But the only thing Gee has regretted is that the photos weren't the ones he wanted to use. He couldn't persuade the church archives, at the time, to release a full set of images of the KEP.

He and Hauglid (and also Royal Skousen, I believe) still maintain that (at least on Ms. #2) many or most of the Egyptian characters were written at a later time than the English text. I think they could be right, but I'm not sure there is any way to prove it.

I looked at my notes again, and noticed that next to my note of "gee convinced the 2 ink theory is dead" i wrote in parentheses "mss 3 only".

It was in the section where hauglid was talking about 'myth #2'. Please listen to that portion, and let me know exactly what he said.

...it still looks like someone (if not Joseph Smith, then the scribes) believed that the BoB text was the origin of the Book of Abraham "translation." So you're still left with having to explain why they thought that, even if the characters were written at a later date. And, of course, even if you were able to disassociate Joseph Smith from the KEP manuscripts, you still have the fact that he indisputably provided translations for the facsimiles -- translations that don't jibe with current Egyptological knowledge.

Exactly. I'd just also add that Joseph Smith was definitively involved in the GAEL, and we can see how his translations there turned out.

Anyway, I'm interested in interviewing people (for the documentary I'm working on) who feel like this whole Book of Abraham issue is a big reason for which they lost faith in the Church -- that's why I asked if you were going to the FAIR conference. I really want to get the impressions of people like you for whom this has apparently been a major factor in their losing faith in Joseph Smith, etc. If you or anyone else is interested, they can PM me. I will be in the SLC area the first week in August, and could also make arrangements to interview people at some other time. I'd like to finish up my interviews by the end of the year so I can finally start editing the thing.

Sorry man, no thanks. For 2 reasons:

1 - The Book of Abraham isn't a 'big reason' for my losing my faith. It's merely a straw in the huge pile that broke the camel's back. A straw that, when added with all the others, makes it impossible (in my mind) to 'have faith' in the church. Right now, I just find it the most interesting topic in my otherwise diminishing interest in things LDS.

2 - No offense, but I don't trust you. I'd be extremely shocked if any critic from the boards (FAIR, MAD, MDB) would agree to do this for you, after having any type of interaction with you. Again, I don't mean to offend, but that's just how I see it. But good luck with the project.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:05 pm

Yeah I read that thread.....quite irritating really. Here are the key things I've figured out:

1) Charity is the biggest waste of bandwidth in the history of bandwidth (that post where she was "offended on behalf of Gee" made the word stupid no longer adequate in describing Charity.....I'm going to have to invent a new word to describe charity's brand of idiocy)
2) How many of the mod sockpuppets are really Juliann (or is it she all of them?)
3) CK apologized....and yet still gets chewed out by Chaos, which leaves me asking.....
4) So who wants to see CK go out in a mighty blaze of glory?

Post by **_The Dude** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:08 pm

Who Knows wrote:1 - The Book of Abraham isn't a 'big reason' for my losing my faith. It's merely a straw in the huge pile that broke the camel's back. A straw that, when added with all the others, makes it impossible (in my mind) to 'have faith' in the church. Right now, I just find it the most interesting topic in my otherwise diminishing interest in things LDS.

Agreed. Many who post here don't agree with the concept that any single issue was more than a straw on the camel's back. It has to fit together with a lot of other things to make someone leave the church.

Who Knows wrote:2 - No offense, but I don't trust you. I'd be extremely shocked if any critic from the boards (FAIR, MAD, MDB) would agree to do this for you, after having any type of interaction with you. Again, I don't mean to offend, but that's just how I see it.

Ouch!

in my opinion, Will has been alright since he started posting as himself.

Post by **_Runtu** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:12 pm

The Dude wrote:
Who Knows wrote:1 - The Book of Abraham isn't a 'big reason' for my losing my faith. It's merely a straw in the huge pile that broke the camel's back. A straw that, when added with all the others, makes it impossible (in my mind) to 'have faith' in the church. Right now, I just find it the most interesting topic in my otherwise diminishing interest in things LDS.

Agreed. Many who post here don't agree with the concept that any single issue was more than a straw on the camel's back. It has to fit together with a lot of other things to make someone leave the church.

Who Knows wrote:2 - No offense, but I don't trust you. I'd be extremely shocked if any critic from the boards (FAIR, MAD, MDB) would agree to do this for you, after having any type of interaction with you. Again, I don't mean to offend, but that's just how I see it.

Ouch!

in my opinion, Will has been alright since he started posting as himself.

I agree with you here. The Book of Abraham is just one of the more obvious indications that LDS scripture is not what it claims to be, but it was part of a much bigger set of problems for me. It was years ago that I realized that I couldn't defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, and I adopted a more allegorical view of things. It wasn't until a friend asked me about polyandry (which I had defended many times before) and a few other historical issues that I suddenly realized that when you have not-real scriptures coupled with prophets who pulled crap like that, you didn't really have anything to stand on anymore.

Post by **_Who Knows** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:14 pm

The Dude wrote:
Who Knows wrote:2 - No offense, but I don't trust you. I'd be extremely shocked if any critic from the boards (FAIR, MAD, MDB) would agree to do this for you, after having any type of interaction with you. Again, I don't mean to offend, but that's just how I see it.

Ouch!

in my opinion, Will has been alright since he started posting as himself.

I agree he's been better - lately, but i still don't trust him.

Tell me, would you agree to do an interview for Will's project? Maybe it's just me, i guess...

Post by **_Runtu** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:23 pm

Bond...James Bond wrote:Yeah I read that thread.....quite irritating really. Here are the key things I've figured out:

1) Charity is the biggest waste of bandwidth in the history of bandwidth (that post where she was "offended on behalf of Gee" made the word stupid no longer adequate in describing Charity.....I'm going to have to invent a new word to describe charity's brand of idiocy)

I wouldn't call her an idiot, though I was tempted to report her for acting like a "board nanny," but then that would have been too snotty even for me.