Is salvation arbitrary or dependent upon our works?

[_Runtu]

Let me preface by saying that I don't believe any of this. But if I did, I might say something like this:

In your example runtu, the gift would actually be a completely finished, beautiful house. And then you turn around and re-paint the walls, because you think it'll add to the beauty and value of the house. You're basically saying "gee, thanks for the house, but I think it can be better."

How would that make the person who gave you the house feel?

Again, I'm just trying to think of an example where 'works' might show ingratitude.

I should have prefaced that, too, with a statement of agnosticism. For now, the idea of a Savior being sacrificed for my sins doesn't seem just or credible, but I haven't given up on God.

[_Inconceivable]

..I always thought that if a person was truly "Christlike" they would be out doing "works" type stuff because they are naturally moved toward being charitable because they were Christian.

..Doing works should show that actions speak louder than words in this issue. I think they go hand in hand.

It occurs to me that perhaps outward commandments and ordenances are created by organizations to gauge the conformity of its members. Man looks at the outward appearance, doesn't God look on the heart?

For example, abstaining from the partaking of coffee and tea. Is this the fruit of the true follower of Christ? Although I don't consume the stuff, I fail to make the connection.

Or does the concept of salvation transcend religeons or organizations? To identify one that is truly on Wisdom's path wouldn't it be as simple as taking notice that they countenance a charitable walk? Perhaps they are only practicing and living the two greatest commandments - and that's it.

Of what value are any other "commandments" if the two greatest are discounted? Besides, which ones did Christ actually fullfill? Certainly not the two greatest, but perhaps most of the rest.

Many view eternal (or future) salvation as a reward for keeping commandments. The Jews proved that merely keeping commandments did not even prepare their hearts for what they ultimately missed.

If living charitably isn't reward enough, we have truly looked beyond the mark.

Salvation dependent on works? I think it has more to do with a true change of heart followed by a charitable walk.



Even if all of this is BS (belief systems), I find balance within my self by trying to be more kind to goofy people like Gaz and Coggins.

[_Pokatator]

Agreed. I'm gonna post this at MAD and see if any of the EV's over there have anything to say. Hopefully someone else will respond here. I don't know how many Evangelicals we have here, though.

Interesting topic. I would be interested in the EV's view point also. But since I haven't been able to view MAD since Nov. 5, 2006, would you be so kind as to post any memorable EV posts from your thread there to here?

I thank you kindly in advance.

[_maklelan]

Interesting topic. I would be interested in the EV's view point also. But since I haven't been able to view MAD since Nov. 5, 2006, would you be so kind as to post any memorable EV posts from your thread there to here?

I thank you kindly in advance.

No problem.

[_ozemc]

I've been invited to return to this board and I figured I'd give it a shot. I was recently listening to a radio interview with Bill Keller and Scott Gordon and I got riled up by some things that Mr. Keller said. I'm curious about how people deal with the issue of grace v. works, but not in the usual scriptural way. In my estimation, salvation can be either utterly and completely arbitrary or it can be contingent upon our works. Whether salvation comes because we decide to believe, because we have faith, or because we follow the commandments, it is dependent upon actions that we perform. Whether it's a small action, or a mental one, or it's a lifetime of action, if you have to make any effort whatsoever to receive salvation it is not a "free gift," it is earned. Having faith requires you do something. Believing requires you do something. If faith is all that is required then there is still a requirement that I have to go out and fulfill, meaning I earn the saving grace. The only other option is that faith and salvation are utterly arbitrary. They are given to whomever God wants with absolutely no regard whatsoever for anything they have done. I don't want to believe in a God who sends one person to Hell and another to Heaven for no reason whatsoever, but it seems many people do. So which is it? Is salvation dependent upon our works or is it the arbitrary whim of God?

Alright I'm not feeling too religious at the moment, but in my younger days I always thought that if a person was truly "Christlike" they would be out doing "works" type stuff because they are naturally moved toward being charitable because they were Christian. The whole "grace alone" thing seems like a big "Get Outta Hell Free" card. All a person has to do is profess belief, and they're good. Doing works should show that actions speak louder than words in this issue. I think they go hand in hand.

Hope that makes sense.

I always kind of thought the same way.

The works come out of the grace.

I think the whole idea was put forth because of the idea that you could "earn" your way to heaven.

Thus the doctrine proposed that "it is by grace alone that you are saved, not by works."

IAW, God does not need us to do anything for Him to save us, it is through His love and grace.

[_moksha]

We all remember the admonition to have faith, hope and charity with the greatest of those being charity.

For conservatives, usually the emphasis is on being rather than doing, as in being good rather than doing good or being wealthy rather than producing wealth. It would only stand to reason therefore, that they would choose to emphasize faith over works, where they could reap the benefits while not being required to give anything in return.

[_maklelan]

Here are some responses, Evangelical and non.

Here is the way I view it. We are all in deep pit with sheer walls and many dangerous obstacles in the way of climbing out. The goal is to get out of the pit where it is safe. There are four types of people in the pit:

Group 1 – Those who are perfectly content to live in the pit. They survive by taking the provisions of others. They mock those who express a desire to get out of the pit.

Group 2 – Those who think they must get out of the pit on their own. They exercise and practice regularly; they may even encourage others to exercise with them. They can be very helpful and encouraging and often will help protect and defend weaker individuals from those in group number one. They try and try to climb out of the pit, but never succeed, saying all along that they need to do it on their own and don’t need help from anyone.

Group 3 - Those who recognize that they cannot climb out of the pit on their own, no matter how strong they may be. They recognize that there is someone who is already out of the pit who is willing to get them out of the pit. They encourage others to believe that this person will save them and in fact they consider themselves already saved by this person, even though they are still in the pit. They are content to remain in the pit, confident that when they finally die of thirst and starvation, the person on the outside will then bring them back to life outside the pit. They are overjoyed by the thought that their future is secure because of this person on the outside.

Group 4 – Those who recognize that the person on the outside of the pit has extended a ladder down into the pit to help everyone climb out. They recognize that if it wasn’t for the kindness of the person on the outside, they would never get out. They begin to climb out. They find out that it is a long way up and that it is not an easy climb, but they persist, constantly expressing gratitude for the one who gave them the ladder. They do their best to get everyone to join them on the ladder and assist those who may lack physical strength. They find that as they climb the ladder there is joy in so doing and the get special helps and bits of encouragement from the owner of the ladder. The other three groups discourage them. Group one is constantly trying to knock them off the ladder and take their provisions. Group two mocks them and calls them weak. Group three tells them they are no different than group two and that there is no way to get out by your own strength, even if there is a ladder, and that the ladder does not really go to the top anyway. Some of those in group four, eventually get convinced by one of the other three groups, they give up climbing and go back down to join them.

In the end, the owner of the ladder takes hold of the ladder and pulls it out of the pit. Some of group four have already made it to the top, but most haven’t. Some were late getting on the ladder and some were not very strong and couldn’t climb very fast. But they soon found out that all that mattered was that they were on the ladder, doing their best to climb it. As the owner of the ladder pulled it out of the pit, those still on the ladder were lifted out with it and were congratulated for their effort, no matter how meager. Each one on the ladder was given the same gift and all of them rejoiced together giving full recognition to the owner of the ladder, knowing that they could never have done it on their own.

Regards,
T-Shirt

To clarify (at least my understanding and meaning when I use the phrase "Cheap Grace"):

Cheap grace doesn't refer in any way to the actions of Christ on our behalf. Indeed the price he paid to buy us was anything but. We agree on that.

The Cheap part of that phrase refers the human/human nature side of that equation. Cheap things are things that are easily obtained, and then generally not of high quality or of true importance to said person.

When a person says that one only has to believe and can then do anything they want because they have been "saved" then there arises some valid questions about how the person with that view truly values the atonement. The issue with this view/belief is NOT one of what a person with this belief does or doesn't do (because to them works don't matter anyway) but of what one CAN do. With this view one can say "I believe Christ is my Savior" and then turning around and do action(s) "x (insert the opposite of what Christ taught) for fun for the rest of their life and not worry about ever even thinking of Him again let alone trying to follow his teachings. He believes, therefore he is saved. End of story.

Now, some might argue that said person was never truly converted to Christ in the first place and thus was never saved. To do that puts those arguing that in the judgement seat instead of Christ. It is really just a sidestep of the issue because rather than facing the logical flaws with such a belief they just cast aspersions on the person in question to change the topic from one of validity of doctrine to the genuineness of the person. Completely different topic.

The fact of the matter is that salvation by grace alone (as opposed to grace after all we can do where grace is still the essential factor that is needed regardless) is that it holds one to no standards at all. One can do anything (except say they don't believe) and it doesn't matter.

I wish I could believe that all Jesus requires of me is that *say* I believe/accept Him as my Savior....what an easy (cheap) way to get to heaven

When you’re saved in Christ, a new power is given you to live a new life. This is what James is talking about when he says, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God” (James 2:23). That’s how a man is justified by works: Abraham believed; that was his “works.” He believed enough to offer up his son.
Jesus supports this interpretation. John 6:28, 29 is an extremely important passage about works and faith. “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
Are we saved by works? Yes! What are those works? Belief! Read that passage again. “This is the work … that ye believe.” Does it take effort to believe? Yes. Sometimes you don’t feel like believing, and you need to pray that God will give you the courage and strength to believe in His Word.
There is an effort involved in trusting God, because our whole nature has been driven to believe in the lies of the devil. He makes us doubt by twisting the evidence, and we doubt those things we cannot see. So God knows it takes effort to believe, that we must choose it. But if you pray, He will gladly help you believe.
Here’s a passage by a brilliant writer who makes great sense of works and faith.
“By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety Who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him Who brings an everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garments of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world”.


Believing is sometimes a challenge because it’s so hard not to give ourselves credit and say, “Lord, I’ll help you make me a good person.” Or “Lord, I thank you that I am not like other sinners, and here is my list of good things I’ve done for you.” It can be hard to lay aside all of our filthy rags disguised as righteousness, to let go of our pride, and to confess that He gets all the glory for our righteousness. We are justified as a gift, through no action of our own except believing in that gift. The Bible says that if we will humble ourselves to this truth, God will lift us up. Don’t let your lowly pride get in the way; rather, let God exalt you as His good and faithful servant by believing in His gospel.

This a great topic! Very interesting and an important question to be asked. You are somewhat correct when you say that the work of excercising faith in Christ is an excersise and wok itself. Unless of course you attribute the whole thing to God from beginning to end.

"If salvation is a free gift that does not at all depend upon our works then it is utterly arbitrary."

-It may seem arbitrary to us, but God chooses as He chooses. ANd we ask "why?" and the response is because of His own good pleasure;

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will" (Prov. 21:1).

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:15-16).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved… In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:3-6, 9).

‘So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.’ (Romans 9:16, 18).


This means the most righteous and loving and faithful person on earth can be sent to Hell while a horrible sinner who has raped and murdered and has never repented or even felt bad will go to heaven.

So we see its up to God to do the saving because man is evil through and through;

Gen 8:21b "The intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 14:4 “Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!”

Eccl. 7:20 "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

Jer 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

Ps 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Ro 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, AND IN THIS WAY DEATH CAME TO ALL MEN, BECAUSE ALL SINNED."

Ro 5:18 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this [salvation is] not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."
faith.


-No it doesn't mean that. When God looks down He sees not this many good works or good things or this many bad works or this many sins, He sees (to borrow from tozer) a moral sitautaion. He sees eiher someone running to the cross for salavtion or someone running away. Sure you can have the nicest old grandma in the world who never cused her wholdl life and bakes cookies for the homeless, but if she is not running to the cross all God sees is a sinner remaining in their sin. but if God sees an young rowdy brat jerk who lies and has sex and smokes dope who the says to himself "what i am doing is wrong, these sins have seperated me from Christ, i need to TURN from these sins and run to the cross." But say even after this huy is saved and runs to the cross and on his way to the cross lies and cheats a bit and even has sex God will see his heart, if he is struggling with those things or if he is just living in those sins, if he is doing this then he is actaually not saved because "can Christ be crucified twice." but if he is struggling and on the outside looks way more wicked than the grandmah, the point is he is more rightous, actaull 100% because he has the rightousness of Christ imputed on him. This is whay it is amazing grace. you are for him or against him.

Great subject!

[_maklelan]

It seems to me this articulates the divergent viewpoints of man by LDS and Christianity. I, of course, can not speak for LDS, but the question does seem to support what I am gleaning from the various posters regarding the nature of man. In your example, one is considered better (worthy?) than the other by the way he leads his life. In my view, while one may be better by our own finite perspective, one can NEVER do enough to be worthy. Thus, the example is moot. To address your specific question, we are saved by Grace alone - by His providence. Nothing can change that. Works should be a natural extention of our salvation but not a necessary component.

You are right. It is one or the other. And it comes down to how we view the nature of man.

By the way, I posted a different OP over there just to avoid copying and pasting my own stuff (I don't like doing it), so they're responding to a slightly different OP:

If salvation is a free gift that does not at all depend upon our works then it is utterly arbitrary. This means the most righteous and loving and faithful person on earth can be sent to Hell while a horrible sinner who has raped and murdered and has never repented or even felt bad will go to heaven. If faith is the only requirement then salvation is dependent upon our works. If all we have to do is believe, well, we still have to work to earn that free gift. Whether it is the mere decision to believe or a lifetime of dedication to the commandments that affords us God's grace, it is still based on works. If the horrible sinner cannot go to heaven then his works have excluded him, meaning if he had done differently, he would have qualified. That equals salvation by works. If the faithful man goes to heaven because of his faith then his faith has earned him salvation. If God gave him that faith through no actions of his own then his salvation is utterly and completely arbitrary and can not be denied the horrible sinner, unless requirements of righteousness are set. You have to pick one or the other: either we have to execute some manner of works, be it faith or righteousness or passive belief, to qualify for the gift, or God gives it to absolutely anyone on earth completely arbitrarily. Which one is it?

[_Gazelam]

We are saved by grace through covenants.

As we are obedient to the covenants we have made, the Spirit of the Lord is more able to fill and sanctify us.

Our sanctified bodies will allow us to take our rightful place after the day of resurrection.

The Grace of Christ washs away the sins and mistakes we made along the way, without him, we would be forever damned.

D&C 88:11-42

[_moksha]

Another side of this coin is that of the Universalist understanding. We are saved not by grace or works but rather by being. All are saved.