Kevin Graham's libel against Ritner?

[_Enuma Elish]

Do you feel an apology to Dr Ritner from Daniel and/or Gee is warranted?

If like Kevin, Daniel and John were publically spreading statments that Ritner is a homosexual in order to discredit Ritner in LDS circles, then, yes. Contrary to Kevin's claim that he "drank the kool-aid Gee and Peterson were pushing and... was just passing along their wisdom," however, I do not believe for a second that Dan and/or John would result to the tactics Kevin employed.

[_mo-watcher]

At the time I was applying the same logic you guys apply today. If one can demonstrate someone is anti-Mormon in any sense, well that is half the battle for a desperate apologist. You railed into Ritner recently in a long diatribe attacking him for being a biased anti-Mromon. Gee, that's really original. You guys do the same thing on a daily basis. ...

People got a kick out of me back then because I would always take the dirt from FAIR and bring it out in the open. Nobody else wanted to do it, but I did. I wanted to see how it would be received by the critics. Most of the time they would shoot it down, thus demonstrating what kind of false rumor factory FAIR really was. ...

I’m sorry if my most “disgusting” comments came when I was a die-hard Mormon apologist. I’m sure that doesn’t say much for that particular affiliation.... I was a product of my environment back then. ... You still haven’t come to grips with the fact that nobody on “our side” at the time expressed the slightest problem or regret with what I said. Only when they find me a turncoat, do they feel it is OK to dig up the past and pass judgment.

I remember those good 'ole days! As a die-hard mopologist, "hubris" was your middle name. Thankfully all that has changed. I used to be in occasional communication with some of the other board-posting mopoligists (just for the fun of laughing at there idiotic desperate ad hoc theories, mind you) and I remember that at least some of them would cringe at some your mopologetics. I guess they were too soft (or too soft in the head) to say anything to you then. I'll bet they're kicking themselves now! LOL!

What a change a few years make. You've finally wised up and realized that you are much too smart to mix with the likes of those idiot mopologists. They deserve nothing less than your brilliant, yet supercilious, rebuttals. If they were too stupid, meek, or kind to voice the complaints that some of them felt as you engaged the superior critical arguments with naivity and grandiose claims, they better not bring them up now. Fools! It's people like you that help the undereducated among us realize just how bad the Mormon cult really is.

[_Enuma Elish]

Now that Kevin has informed Ritner that Daniel Peterson and John Gee were responsible for the rumors he made public concerning Ritner’s homosexuality, it will be interesting to see the consequences.

If Kevin had evidence that Dan and John were simply feeding him the information regarding Ritner’s alleged homosexual agenda, I have no doubt he would produce it as part of his most recent smear campaign. The fact that Kevin hasn’t ever produced the evidence that Dan and John were feeding him the information on Ritner's homosexuality suggests that it doesn’t exist.

Nice to have someone to blame for our mistakes though.

[_harmony]

Do you feel an apology to Dr Ritner from Daniel and/or Gee is warranted?

If like Kevin, Daniel and John were publically spreading statments that Ritner is a homosexual in order to discredit Ritner in LDS circles, then, yes. Contrary to Kevin's claim that he "drank the kool-aid Gee and Peterson were pushing and... was just passing along their wisdom," however, I do not believe for a second that Dan and/or John would result to the tactics Kevin employed.

Actually, I was referring to the story that Dr Ritner was removed from Gee's committee. I find the homosexuality a non-issue, simply because I don't consider it to be an insult.

[_dartagnan]

If like Kevin, Daniel and John were publically spreading statments that Ritner is a homosexual

OMG, David, are you conscious of the fact that you have ignored my correction twice now? Nobody said Ritner was a homosexual. I haven’t said it now and I didn’t say it five years ago. Do the facts mean so little when defending Dan is of the highest priority?

I do not believe for a second that Dan and/or John would result to the tactics Kevin employed.

Tactics employed? You mean passing along what others had told me that day in an LDS apologetic e-list? Yea, that’s some “tactic” David. And if you’re interested, you can ask Rollo about Dan’s part in spreading the “Quinn is gay” rumor. In any event, I am utterly shell-shocked that you think their rumors are any less sensitive or damaging. Ritner responded indignantly to their rumors, not mine. Gee, ever wonder why? Here are some ideas that might explain.

Gee and Peterson (for the third time now) made possible credibility damaging accusations and stated them as factual. They have been doing so for five years now. They are two University Professors whose influence is considerable and widespread.

Contrast that with some isolated comment about a possible homosexuality, posted by a pseudonym toting apologist who wasn’t a professor at the time, who didn’t have wide or considerable influence, who didn’t repeat it over a five year period, and repented from ever saying it.

Again, you’re being a good dog and spinning the situation so Dan looks like a victim and I look like Hitler. Facts be damned. This is to be expected from your crowd.

Now that Kevin has informed Ritner that Daniel Peterson and John Gee were responsible for the rumors he made public concerning Ritner’s homosexuality

OK, you’re back to being on my idiot list. Nobody said that, including me. Good God man, are you even trying to keep up? Please tell me where I said Gee and Dan were responsible for starting the homosexuality rumor.

If Kevin had evidence that Dan and John were simply feeding him the information regarding Ritner’s alleged homosexual agenda, I have no doubt he would produce it as part of his most recent smear campaign.

When all else fails, grasp for the nearest straw man your mind can conjure up.

The fact that Kevin hasn’t ever produced the evidence that Dan and John were feeding him the information on Ritner's homosexuality suggests that it doesn’t exist.

I never suggested Dan and Gee were the ones who originated this rumor. You’re just focusing on the homosexuality bit as a diversion. Good doggy.

Nice to have someone to blame for our mistakes though.

Dan certainly thinks so. Did you read his latest whine? Now all of the sudden I am supposed to be held accountable for all the various comments he has been making over the past five years.

[_dartagnan]

Actually, I was referring to the story that Dr Ritner was removed from Gee's committee. I find the homosexuality a non-issue, simply because I don't consider it to be an insult.

An interesting point here because David thinks being a homosexual is some character flaw.

Some of my guy friends used to accuse me of being gay because I didn't date for a while. A girl friend of mine many years ago thought I was gay because I had good taste in clothes and liked to decorate my house.

But you know what, none of this came as an insult. What does come as an insult is to accuse me of lying.

David has revealed a bigotry streak in himself by blowing up the homosexuality comment out of proportion. He said it was a character flaw (his words!). He doesn't even seem interested in keeping up with what has and hasn't been said.

[Guest]

You told us that you apologized to Ritner for spreading public statements in LDS circles concerning Ritner’s sexual preference. How can you turn around and state that “Nobody said Ritner was a homosexual. I haven’t said it now and I didn’t say it five years ago.” Why did you tell us then that you had sent him an apology for spreading the information? Are you now denying that you made these statements then:

Well I just heard a rumor that he might be gay, and that he didn't appreciate the LDS stand on homosexuality. Not sure how accurate this is though, but it would prove interesting if true.

I didn't invent this rumor out of thin air. It is a well-known fact that homosexual writers have a tendency to write against the LDS faith by any avenue possible. Actually, when I heard this rumor I was skeptical since I have seen Ritner referred to online with his wife Karen. But the rumor stated that he just recently "came out of the closet." This would explain why he "just now" decided to write anti-Mormon propaganda.

Are not these your words? How in the world can you state that no one, including you, said that Ritner was a homosexual?

In response to my assertion that the comments Dan and John Gee allegedly made were nothing compared to your statements made in order to reveal the man’s sexual preference in an effort to discredit his views, you claimed that you sent Ritner an apology and informed him of your public comments that “Gee and Peterson were pushing."

Quit trying to spin this mess, Kevin. You owe the board an explanation. Answer the questions.

Did you tell Ritner that your public comments included revealing publicly the details of his sexual preference?

Did, as your post would lead us to believe, John Gee and Dan Peterson spoon-feed this information regarding Ritner’s sexuality to you?

Did you in fact use Ritner’s sexual orientation in an effort to smear his reputation in LDS circles?

[_moksha]

I don't find very convincing somebody who uses the word "idiot" to denounce almost every poster with whom he disagrees, and does so anonymously. Why can't he use his real name when he calls me an idiot?

rcrocket

Absolutely right! Being called an idiot by any other name - such as Lamoni Jensen - would smell so much sweeter. Probably look better on email as well.

[_harmony]

You told us that you apologized to Ritner for spreading public statements in LDS circles concerning Ritner’s sexual preference. How can you turn around and state that “Nobody said Ritner was a homosexual. I haven’t said it now and I didn’t say it five years ago.” Why did you tell us then that you had sent him an apology for spreading the information? Are you now denying that you made these statements then:

Well I just heard a rumor that he might be gay, and that he didn't appreciate the LDS stand on homosexuality. Not sure how accurate this is though, but it would prove interesting if true.

I didn't invent this rumor out of thin air. It is a well-known fact that homosexual writers have a tendency to write against the LDS faith by any avenue possible. Actually, when I heard this rumor I was skeptical since I have seen Ritner referred to online with his wife Karen. But the rumor stated that he just recently "came out of the closet." This would explain why he "just now" decided to write anti-Mormon propaganda.

Are not these your words? How in the world can you state that no one, including you, said that Ritner was a homosexual?

In response to my assertion that the comments Dan and John Gee allegedly made were nothing compared to your statements made in order to reveal the man’s sexual preference in an effort to discredit his views, you claimed that you sent Ritner an apology and informed him of your public comments that “Gee and Peterson were pushing."

Quit trying to spin this mess, Kevin. You owe the board an explanation. Answer the questions.

Did you tell Ritner that your public comments including revealing publicly the details of his sexual preference?

Did, as your post would lead us to believe, John Gee and Dan Peterson spoon-feed this information regarding Ritner’s sexuality to you?

Did you in fact you use Ritner’s sexual orientation in an effort to smear his reputation in LDS circles?

Why am I the only one who sees the sexual orientation of this man as a non-issue? It seems to me like the issue, according to Dr Ritner, is the rumor that he was booted off Gee's committee. Can we deal with that, please?

[_Enuma Elish]

Why am I the only one who sees the sexual orientation of this man as a non-issue? It seems to me like the issue, according to Dr Ritner, is the rumor that he was booted off Gee's committee. Can we deal with that, please?

My heavens! Of course the issue is not Ritner’s sexual orientation! I couldn’t care less about his personal life.

The issue is that Kevin’s posts would lead us to believe that when he attempted to smear Ritner’s reputation in LDS circles by publicly revealing Ritner’s sexual preferences that Kevin was simply repeating the information that Gee and Peterson spoon fed him. That’s a serious allegation that needs clarification.

The issue is also that whether he’s attacking critics and/or apologists that Kevin results to any unethical means necessary in order to belittle his opponent. That while he attempted to smear Gee and Peterson’s reputation for hinting that Ritner’s biases may in part be a result of his personal academic grudge with Gee, Kevin himself was guilty of a far greater crime by using the man’s sexual preference to smear his reputation in LDS circles.

These are the issues!

This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach! I honestly have come to the conclusion that Kevin Graham is a seriously disturbed individual and so will let the issue die. I simply hope that others will consider the source from here on out and that somehow Dr. Ritner will understand who he's dealing with.