Another Fundamental to Question...

[_Coggins7]

Sounds like you're looking forward to a hereafter where there won't be any Paris Hilton or illegal aliens. I hope you're not too disappointed when you find them and all the rest of us too.

The Jesus who died for our sins is a creation of men's basic human nature and I'm afraid he will remain popular with most believers because they understand the concept of reward/punishment much better than the concept of forgiveness and they can't or won't imagine a God who, like the father of the prodigal son, took his son back with rejoicing and without question. That is the model Jesus gave us of God, and it should be just that simple, but no, human nature wants to make a religion out of it with commandments and prophets and threats and judgments.

Of course, according to the Savior, there will indeed be no illegal aliens in the hereafter (John 10, 1).

I also fail to see the similarity between the present legal fate of Paris Hilton and the present invasion of North America from south of the border.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Sounds like you're looking forward to a hereafter where there won't be any Paris Hilton or illegal aliens. I hope you're not too disappointed when you find them and all the rest of us too.

The Jesus who died for our sins is a creation of men's basic human nature and I'm afraid he will remain popular with most believers because they understand the concept of reward/punishment much better than the concept of forgiveness and they can't or won't imagine a God who, like the father of the prodigal son, took his son back with rejoicing and without question. That is the model Jesus gave us of God, and it should be just that simple, but no, human nature wants to make a religion out of it with commandments and prophets and threats and judgments.

Of course, according to the Savior, there will indeed be no illegal aliens in the hereafter (John 10, 1).

I also fail to see the similarity between the present legal fate of Paris Hilton and the present invasion of North America from south of the border.

Of course you don't. You have been trained to see the differences instead.

[_huckelberry]

I really do not understand why Mr Spong cannot find his way out of Christianity that he hates. wouldn't he be happier elsewhere?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

I really do not understand why Mr Spong cannot find his way out of Christianity that he hates. wouldn't he be happier elsewhere?

He doesn't hate Christianity.

[_huckelberry]

he does not hate Christianity.

Well there is no way I would know that. I have not seen anything posted from him that expresses any observation about Christianity that sees any value in it. I see his characterizations as gross and distorted but that observation seems secondary to the first one. Why in the world does this person want to be associated with Christianity?

Roger did admit that he trimmed the quote. Did Roger trim some observation wherein Spong sees some redeeming characteristic in Christianity? What was it.?

Is it something like humans should forgive each other? I think that is true, why do we need Jesus to tell us that?. Why get tied up with that person Jesus and the narrowness of his particular views in time? Why does Spong not have the courage to go eleswhere?

[_Gazelam]

Sounds like you're looking forward to a hereafter where there won't be any Paris Hilton or illegal aliens. I hope you're not too disappointed when you find them and all the rest of us too.

Yoiu completely missed the point.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

he does not hate Christianity.

Well there is no way I would know that. I have not seen anything posted from him that expresses any observation about Christianity that sees any value in it. I see his characterizations as gross and distorted but that observation seems secondary to the first one. Why in the world does this person want to be associated with Christianity?

Roger did admit that he trimmed the quote. Did Roger trim some observation wherein Spong sees some redeeming characteristic in Christianity? What was it.?

Is it something like humans should forgive each other? I think that is true, why do we need Jesus to tell us that?. Why get tied up with that person Jesus and the narrowness of his particular views in time? Why does Spong not have the courage to go eleswhere?

You might try reading one of his books, and I think the title is Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, to find answers to these questions.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Sounds like you're looking forward to a hereafter where there won't be any Paris Hilton or illegal aliens. I hope you're not too disappointed when you find them and all the rest of us too.

Yoiu completely missed the point.

I thought your point was the everyone must be made accountable. I might have been mistaken, of course.

[_Roger Morrison]

he does not hate Christianity.

Well there is no way I would know that. I have not seen anything posted from him that expresses any observation about Christianity that sees any value in it. I see his characterizations as gross and distorted but that observation seems secondary to the first one. Why in the world does this person want to be associated with Christianity?

Roger did admit that he trimmed the quote. Did Roger trim some observation wherein Spong sees some redeeming characteristic in Christianity? What was it.?

Is it something like humans should forgive each other? I think that is true, why do we need Jesus to tell us that?. Why get tied up with that person Jesus and the narrowness of his particular views in time? Why does Spong not have the courage to go eleswhere?

Hi Huck, L-Mac offered an excellent suggestion: "...read a couple, (or one :-) of Spong's books..." One might ask if Jesus hated HIS religion when HE was so critical of it; even throwing over the money-changer's tables as HE ranted about THEM making HIS Father's house, "...a den of thieves..."

Spong is a life-time carreer ecclesiast, a retired Bishop of the Episcopalian Church, and an ex-teacher in Harvard Divinity Dept. (I think it was Harvard?) AS well he is renowned as a speaker on the circuit of "Christian Reformation". He writes and speaks as he does because he loves the spirit and philosophy of Christ while abhoring the untruths of the life of Christ and the distortions of his teachings by Fundamentalists & others whose minds are closed to new thought re Christianity. He is not alone in this, thank "God"!

Huck, what i "adimitted to" was that i just pasted the first two paragraphs (uncut) of Spong's latest news-letter. I did so with the intention of pasting the balance later. There are those who might think, "a little Spong goes a long way"... Sorry for your confusion here. MAYBE i'll paste the rest as a "New Topic." Would that help to a better undestanding???

I get the sense that you too question/reject traditional Christianism. Is that correct? What are YOUR thoughts re the subject?

I THINK the Jesus story, when understod as a social-critique, not as a pathway to Heaven, presents some profound personal, AND group life skills. Skills and principles we're still attempting to understand from a mortal moral secular perspective...

Gaz, i'm with Loran on your questions re Hilton & illegal immigrants. What's with that Bro? Warm regards, Roger

[_huckelberry]

illegal immigrants,, Once upon a time our social values would have been such that we could simply have taken slaves for labor and then built a reverse Berlin wall with a shoot to kIll order to control the population. Now since Jesus nailed that cross on our forheads we fret about finding the proper role for forgiveness in the matter.

Not that I have a foolproof formula for how to put forgiveness into action in all cases.

Roger, I think you are correct that I am willing to question traditional doctrine. I am willing to question most anything. I even could confess to some hope for postive transformation in the future of Christianity.

On the other hand to my view the atonement is one of the few redeeming quality Christianity has. Pain in the ass without it.
I think I actually would prefer Greatful Dead to Christianity without atonement. With it I can see value in both.

Grumpy alert,,

about reading a book by Spong, I might, could I suppose, but I have a number of books I think I would rather read first. In truth I am a bit put off by responses to a straingforward question which reply read such and such. If such and such provides sufficiently interseting ideas I think it would not be to much trouble to take the time to compose a few sentences relating some of those ideas. If the book fails to create enough entheusism to be worth that small trouble then I cannot help suspecting the book dull or so poorly composed that people do not want to try to summerize an argument in the book for fear of realizing nothing was there.