Is salvation arbitrary or dependent upon our works?

[_harmony]

Salvation is not the issue. Salvation will happen to all who have ever lived. That is the gift of the Atonement, that the grave cannot keep the dead. All are saved and all will have eternal life.

Exaltation is the issue. Exaltation is earned. Exaltation is what we appear in front of the Judgment Bar to receive, based on what we did with the life we were given. Were we kind? Did we keep our promises? Did we lie? Did we covenant anything that was our neighbor's? Did we honor our parents? How did we treat the widows and the poor? Did we repent when we screwed up?

[_silentkid]

Salvation is not the issue. Salvation will happen to all who have ever lived. That is the gift of the Atonement, that the grave cannot keep the dead. All are saved and all will have eternal life.

Exaltation is the issue. Exaltation is earned. Exaltation is what we appear in front of the Judgment Bar to receive, based on what we did with the life we were given. Were we kind? Did we keep our promises? Did we lie? Did we covenant anything that was our neighbor's? Did we honor our parents? How did we treat the widows and the poor? Did we repent when we screwed up?

This is kind of the way I learned it, too. Salvation, or "being saved" refers to being saved from physical death. The resurrection of Christ (not the Atonement) saves all from physical death, without the need for works. Exaltation requires putting the Atonement into action, including repentance, performing ordinances, enduring to the end, and all that. I don't believe in any of this anymore, but that's what I remember.

[_moksha]

Salvation is not the issue. Salvation will happen to all who have ever lived. That is the gift of the Atonement, that the grave cannot keep the dead. All are saved and all will have eternal life.

Exaltation is the issue. Exaltation is earned. Exaltation is what we appear in front of the Judgment Bar to receive, based on what we did with the life we were given. Were we kind? Did we keep our promises? Did we lie? Did we covenant anything that was our neighbor's? Did we honor our parents? How did we treat the widows and the poor? Did we repent when we screwed up?

So, in the LDS scheme of things, do those who are merely saved end up in the Telestial and Terrestrial areas of Heaven, while the exalted ones go on to one of the degrees of the Celestial area depending on how well their works went? (by the way, is the highest area still reserved for the polygamists?)

[_harmony]

Salvation is not the issue. Salvation will happen to all who have ever lived. That is the gift of the Atonement, that the grave cannot keep the dead. All are saved and all will have eternal life.

Exaltation is the issue. Exaltation is earned. Exaltation is what we appear in front of the Judgment Bar to receive, based on what we did with the life we were given. Were we kind? Did we keep our promises? Did we lie? Did we covenant anything that was our neighbor's? Did we honor our parents? How did we treat the widows and the poor? Did we repent when we screwed up?

So, in the LDS scheme of things, do those who are merely saved end up in the Telestial and Terrestrial areas of Heaven, while the exalted ones go on to one of the degrees of the Celestial area depending on how well their works went? (by the way, is the highest area still reserved for the polygamists?)

Polygamists, at least those who forced and/or duped others into the practice, have a special place in hell reserved for them. in my opinion, of course.

No one is "merely saved". Everyone is exalted. Everyone gets what they deserve, based on how they lived their life. That's why I think we will all be surprised at who ends up where.

[_ajax18]

We all remember the admonition to have faith, hope and charity with the greatest of those being charity.

For conservatives, usually the emphasis is on being rather than doing, as in being good rather than doing good or being wealthy rather than producing wealth. It would only stand to reason therefore, that they would choose to emphasize faith over works, where they could reap the benefits while not being required to give anything in return.

Moshka I suppose you might have interacted with some conservatives like that but I sure hope you don't lump me into that category. Before I went to war with the liberals I practiced a benevolent capitalism, which basically left an imbalance of power and some other problems of capitalism, but also an imperative to practice Christlike attributes, for example loving your neighbor, which to me means rather than simply firing him without severance when you find someone else who could make you more money, you let him share in the profits he helped create and treat him like a human being and not just a resource. I don't think it would be effective to legislate that employers need to be generous to their workers, but I definitely think that God will ultimately settle the score on this. I just don't buy the idea that we won't or shouldn't be concerned with injustices that happened on earth in the next life. A big part of the attonement in my mind is to make mercy and justice coexist even though they are logical opposites. Don't ask me how that's done.

Unfortunately the Church has been vague on this for a very practical reason. They want to keep as many people with different views on this in the Church as they can. Yet this same vagueness and lack of doctrine can leave the members unsatisfied and unmotivated to make the same level of sacrfice to the Church, which unlike the amount of doctrine explained, hasn't gone down much.

James E. Talmage pointed out that even God cannot reward a man for that which he has not done. To me this issue is central to the gospel and religion in general. The fact that we cannot agree on it as a Church makes me want to find another community to strengthen my faith with and just get out altogether more than anything else. Yet unfortunately I don't think very many people agree with simple eternal fairness anymore so it looks like I'm on my own for a while.