Another Book of Abraham thread - what are believers fighting for?
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Another Book of Abraham thread - what are believers fighting for?
Hello everyone,
As a non-believing, but self-identifying Mormon, I used to post on FAIR a bit, but now mostly just lurk here and there. With all the fur flying over the Book of Abraham lately, I had a thought that brings me out of lurking mode for a moment. Maybe this is already obvious to everyone else, but it just hit me that the issue has everything to do with the messenger and NOTHING to do with the Book of Abraham itself.
What does the Book of Abraham say that is really of any use to anyone and would make it worth fighting over? Of course, it's really fighting over Joseph Smith rather than Abraham. The only scripture that I think anyone really cares about on the believing side is the 2 verses in Ab 3. Even the facsimiles which often drive the debate are effectively pointless in current mormondum. Accepting the recent official/non-official definition of doctrine as whatever LDS think it is based on recent talks and correlated material - When was the last time anyone here heard LDS point out anything of any theological/moral/practical importance from the facsimiles? It is "doctrinal" in the sense it was canonized, but not-doctrinal in the sense that no one really talks about or believes it much. I remember as a kid getting excited about the "astronomy" in the facsimile - I loved science, but even then, very few other people I knew were willing to put much investment in the implications of Obilish, Enish-go-on-dosh and the ruling planetary system. And it seems the book is only becoming progressively more marginalized with time. The part about lineage of Ham is kind of embarassing and most of the rest is redundant with Genesis (and we might as well use that since we're Christian, after all). So I fail to see much worth fighting for from a believing standpoint *except* the issue of whether the author/translator was inspired by God to write this stuff that isn't currently paid much attention.
I guess where I'm going is that I don't see the Book of Abraham doing anything for even fully TBM in much of any meaningful sense other than as existing as a testament to Joseph Smith. If the words of a prophet aren't all that useful, why should I bother with them whether I think they are inspired or not? Fighting over mostly useless words because of who the author is, unfortunately gets dangerously close to cultish behavior (messenger over message). Would it even be possible to have a discussion on the attractiveness of believing the Book of Abraham on its own merits. I have my doubts, since it has even less to offer than the Book of Mormon on that score, but I would love to hear thought on that if anyone has any.
I am leaving town for a week, so unfortunately won't be able to check back on this until then, but I felt like I should post this before it leaked out of my head, anyway.
As a non-believing, but self-identifying Mormon, I used to post on FAIR a bit, but now mostly just lurk here and there. With all the fur flying over the Book of Abraham lately, I had a thought that brings me out of lurking mode for a moment. Maybe this is already obvious to everyone else, but it just hit me that the issue has everything to do with the messenger and NOTHING to do with the Book of Abraham itself.
What does the Book of Abraham say that is really of any use to anyone and would make it worth fighting over? Of course, it's really fighting over Joseph Smith rather than Abraham. The only scripture that I think anyone really cares about on the believing side is the 2 verses in Ab 3. Even the facsimiles which often drive the debate are effectively pointless in current mormondum. Accepting the recent official/non-official definition of doctrine as whatever LDS think it is based on recent talks and correlated material - When was the last time anyone here heard LDS point out anything of any theological/moral/practical importance from the facsimiles? It is "doctrinal" in the sense it was canonized, but not-doctrinal in the sense that no one really talks about or believes it much. I remember as a kid getting excited about the "astronomy" in the facsimile - I loved science, but even then, very few other people I knew were willing to put much investment in the implications of Obilish, Enish-go-on-dosh and the ruling planetary system. And it seems the book is only becoming progressively more marginalized with time. The part about lineage of Ham is kind of embarassing and most of the rest is redundant with Genesis (and we might as well use that since we're Christian, after all). So I fail to see much worth fighting for from a believing standpoint *except* the issue of whether the author/translator was inspired by God to write this stuff that isn't currently paid much attention.
I guess where I'm going is that I don't see the Book of Abraham doing anything for even fully TBM in much of any meaningful sense other than as existing as a testament to Joseph Smith. If the words of a prophet aren't all that useful, why should I bother with them whether I think they are inspired or not? Fighting over mostly useless words because of who the author is, unfortunately gets dangerously close to cultish behavior (messenger over message). Would it even be possible to have a discussion on the attractiveness of believing the Book of Abraham on its own merits. I have my doubts, since it has even less to offer than the Book of Mormon on that score, but I would love to hear thought on that if anyone has any.
I am leaving town for a week, so unfortunately won't be able to check back on this until then, but I felt like I should post this before it leaked out of my head, anyway.
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What does the Book of Abraham say that is really of any use to anyone and would make it worth fighting over?
Nothing really, but the problem is that in the late 19th century the Church did something Joseph Smith wouldn’t do: it canonized the Book of Abraham. Upon doing this, the Church became obligated to defend the work as “ancient scripture.” It also opened itself up to criticism that cannot apply to the Book of Mormon since
1) The language from which the Book of Mormon was translated isn’t verifiable.
2) We do not have the source from which the Book of Mormon was translated.
So if critics can demonstrate that Smith didn’t know what the hell he was talking about in his “translations” of Egyptian papyrus, then it would destroy his credibility as a translator of ancient documents, thus wiping out the Book of Mormon in the process. This is what so many people don't realize, so the Book of Abraham issue is in many ways more dangerous for the Church. If it were not for the Book of Abraham problems I would still be a TBM apologist intoxicated with confirmation bias.
What gets me is that most LDS really know nothing about the Book of Abraham. They treat the Pearl of Great Price with mystery, when it fact it is less mysterious than the Book of Mormon. When I joined the ChurchI never really understood the importance of this extra portion of the canon, and nobody really went out of their way to explain it to me. It is the Book of Mormon investigators are asked to read and pray about, not the Bible and not the PoGP.
It is "doctrinal" in the sense it was canonized, but not-doctrinal in the sense that no one really talks about or believes it much.
True.
I remember as a kid getting excited about the "astronomy" in the facsimile - I loved science, but even then, very few other people I knew were willing to put much investment in the implications of Obilish, Enish-go-on-dosh and the ruling planetary system. And it seems the book is only becoming progressively more marginalized with time.
I think this is accurate.
The part about lineage of Ham is kind of embarassing and most of the rest is redundant with Genesis (and we might as well use that since we're Christian, after all). So I fail to see much worth fighting for from a believing standpoint *except* the issue of whether the author/translator was inspired by God to write this stuff that isn't currently paid much attention.
The Book of Abraham poses a problem for the Church where the Book of Mormon doesn’t. There will always be criticisms about anachronisms or what not, concerning the Book of Mormon, but apologists can always conjure up hypothetical or plausible scenarios to explain why certain evidences haven’t been discovered yet.
With the Book of Abraham, apologists have a more difficult problem. They have to dismiss a ton of evidence that points to the extant papyrus being the source for the “translation.” If it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that the extant papyrus was the source for the Book of Abraham, then the Church breaks a crucial leg on which its foundation is fixed.
I guess where I'm going is that I don't see the Book of Abraham doing anything for even fully TBM in much of any meaningful sense other than as existing as a testament to Joseph Smith.
You’re right, and the current effort to find meaning and spiritual value in the Book of Abraham is really a back-door effort at apologetics. David Bokovoy for example, is fixed on what the work says, and he does his best to dissect anything from it that can be compared to the “ancient world” as a parellel. This is Hugh Nibley apologetics all over again: parallelomania. They want yto draw you back into the world of Mormon thought where parallels determine truth. They want you to ignore what the evidence suggests about its origin, and instead focus on the content itself – more importantly, they want you to focus on what they say about the content.
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I disagree that the Book of Abraham is doctrinally irrelevant. It is the strongest canonized description of premortality we have. It also presents a unique picture of creation not there in either Genesis or the Book of Moses.
The point of Kolob is not to instruct in Astronomy (though it does do some of it) but to use some of the most awesome pieces of creation to convey some things about God. The attempted sacrifice of Abraham casts the later sacrifice of Issac in a much more complex light. I would always use the story of Abraham as an example of how one can rise above a dysfunctional family.
There are also many passages that to this day I have marked as holding some mystery that I still need to unlock.
The point of Kolob is not to instruct in Astronomy (though it does do some of it) but to use some of the most awesome pieces of creation to convey some things about God. The attempted sacrifice of Abraham casts the later sacrifice of Issac in a much more complex light. I would always use the story of Abraham as an example of how one can rise above a dysfunctional family.
There are also many passages that to this day I have marked as holding some mystery that I still need to unlock.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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I would always use the story of Abraham as an example of how one can rise above a dysfunctional family.
Rise above?
Just how do you suppose the Father-Son relationship was after that crazy incident?
Abraham: Hey son, come with me (out of screaming distance) over the hill and let's feed the flock together.
Isaac: Um... uh... ya know... uh.... I don't think so Dad.
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Kevin Graham wrote:Just how do you suppose the Father-Son relationship was after that crazy incident?
Abraham: Hey son, come with me (out of screaming distance) over the hill and let's feed the flock together.
Isaac: Um... uh... ya know... uh.... I don't think so Dad.
Could you imagine the therapy sessions:
Dr. Phil: Now why do you hate your dad Isaac?
Isaac: He tried to kill me.
Dr. Phil: Now I'm sure he didn't try to kill you?
Isaac: He tied me down and tried to sacrifice me!
Dr. Phil: I'm sure you're just blowing things outta porportion Isaac.
Isaac: It's all here in this book.....you know the Bible. Best seller in the history of man. Sold more copies than Frampton Comes Alive. Read the damn book.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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Whoa.Kevin Graham wrote:If it were not for the Book of Abraham problems I would still be a TBM apologist intoxicated with confirmation bias.
With that statement are you saying you are now an exmormon?
*Porter cues up Queen's "Another one bites the dust", twitching finger hovering over the play button...*
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Kevin figured out that FARMS was NOT playing cards honestly. I was glad to see him make that big step into apologetic reasoning wherein honesty was first and foremost. Isn't that right, Kevin?
Now he is a lone ranger shunned by those who were once his friends.
I'm just a lone wolf who is considered a crackpot by the so-called scholars at BYU. It will be interesting to learn they realized I was right all along and they were wrong! The great scholars of LDS Mormondom, keepers of the apologetic kingdom are wrong! Humble yourselves ye great scholars! Ye learned fools! A poor little unlearned man such as myself is greater than you!
What a crazy world we live in. Why me? I don't want this job. But someone had to do it.
Paul O
Now he is a lone ranger shunned by those who were once his friends.
I'm just a lone wolf who is considered a crackpot by the so-called scholars at BYU. It will be interesting to learn they realized I was right all along and they were wrong! The great scholars of LDS Mormondom, keepers of the apologetic kingdom are wrong! Humble yourselves ye great scholars! Ye learned fools! A poor little unlearned man such as myself is greater than you!
What a crazy world we live in. Why me? I don't want this job. But someone had to do it.
Paul O
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What does the Book of Abraham say that is really of any use to anyone and would make it worth fighting over?
Are you kidding me? Those short few chapters we did get are so packed full of great doctrine its ridiculous.
Just off the top of my head without pulling out a commentary or reference book:
1) An account of Abraham being sacrificed by Pharaoh, comperable to apocryphal accounts.
2)A brief history of Abrahams struggles with his Father, also comparable to apocryphal acounts
3)A history of the settleing of Egypt by Egyptus and the beginning of their belief system, due to the ancestor of Egyptus desireing religion, but being denied the priestood due to their apostate lineage.
4) a discussion of the creations of God, which leads into a discussion of the priesthood, which leads to a discussion of the creation of man, which leads to a discussion regarding the pre-exitence. Has more great doctrine ever been packed into a single chapter od scripture?
5)The doctrine of al things being created spiritually before they are created physically is expounded.
If youtr really having trouble with this, stop with the nonsence discussion of the books origin, and start studying the doctrines taught.
Heres a great commentary you can start with:

The Pearl of Great Price: A Verse-by-Verse Commentary
by S. Kent Brown, Richard D. Draper and Michael D. Rhodes
$27.95
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato