Tom wrote:I noticed the following comment last week on the MAD boards:
"[Will Bagley] and I were members of the same LDS-Bookshelf list for some time; that list was dominated by persons hostile to the Church's view of things. I repeatedly prodded Bagley for answers to questions. He would just insult me and refuse to engage. For instance, I pointed out to him that he was a Huntington Library scholar, and contained within the massacre files there is a letter from John D. Lee's lawyer indicating that the lawyer was going to fictionalize Lee's confession to make it sell better. I asked Bagley whether he had seen that, and whether he thought it was worth mentioning in his book since he cited so much and frequently to Lee's confession. Bagley just called me a hack and a stooge."
Tom wrote:I noticed the following comment last week on the MAD boards:
"[Will Bagley] and I were members of the same LDS-Bookshelf list for some time; that list was dominated by persons hostile to the Church's view of things. I repeatedly prodded Bagley for answers to questions. He would just insult me and refuse to engage. For instance, I pointed out to him that he was a Huntington Library scholar, and contained within the massacre files there is a letter from John D. Lee's lawyer indicating that the lawyer was going to fictionalize Lee's confession to make it sell better. I asked Bagley whether he had seen that, and whether he thought it was worth mentioning in his book since he cited so much and frequently to Lee's confession. Bagley just called me a hack and a stooge."
We're all quite familiar with Bob's take on that statement by Lee's lawyer.
There's a long discussion here. You decide who is fictionalizing.
Bagley can be a bit testy by nature. I remember sending an email to him about an error in his book. Let's just say he didn't take it well, and used every foul word available to tell me so. But after his initial knee-jerk reaction, he actually became quite cordial and admitted the error.
As for Bob's message about Bagley on MAD, I recall (in the thread you link above) that Bob pooh-poohed my posts by saying Bagley never complained about the butchered quote from the Bishop letter, so why should I. Pretty weak response, in my opinion, but Bob did eventually come around and admit that he screwed up. My only question is whether Turley will make the same mistake in his forthcoming book.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
The Nehor wrote:Anyone else read the Church News article about the Meadow Mountain Massacre. It was pretty detailed. I don't get the Church News but while visiting my parent's home my dad read me, my sister, and my mother the article. It was very direct. Wish it was online.
Any thoughts from those who have read it?
I haven't read it, but I'm wondering why they don't put something like this in the Ensign. That way, it would reach many more members.
As for Bob's message about Bagley on MAD, I recall (in the thread you link above) that Bob pooh-poohed my posts by saying Bagley never complained about the butchered quote from the Bishop letter, so why should I. Pretty weak response, in my opinion, but Bob did eventually come around and admit that he screwed up. My only question is whether Turley will make the same mistake in his forthcoming book.
He seemed to concede your point on May 24. It appears that he returned to his earlier stance in his MAD post last week (page 12 of the "A Question About Bagley's Claim" thread).
The Nehor wrote:I personally think a Nazi history of the Concentration Camps would be very interesting reading though how that relates to this circumstance is problematic.
All HISTORIANS are biased. Without some investment no historical writing would occur.
Well then, unless you are under an NDA then give it up! Give us a report on the article. Don't just say it was "direct".
I am sure that LDS Inc thinks this is a preemptive strike to help reduce the damage from the incoming ICBM "September Dawn".
I'd give a more in-depth review but it would be dangerous as I don't have it and am working solely from memory. There was no rationalization of the Massacre. They did list some of the reasons for the tension but it was in a grudging way similar to the way they allow that the Missouri mobsters had some real political reasons for wanting the Mormons out.
They quoted one of the memorial markers completely. They described in detail how the executions of the men were done which was kinda grisly (at set command turn and fire on man next to you) complete with plans on how to prevent escape from survivors. The only part that would be controversial was a list of reasons Brigham Young was unlikely to have ordered the massacre however they were not described as being definitive proof.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I'd give a more in-depth review but it would be dangerous as I don't have it and am working solely from memory. There was no rationalization of the Massacre. They did list some of the reasons for the tension but it was in a grudging way similar to the way they allow that the Missouri mobsters had some real political reasons for wanting the Mormons out.
They quoted one of the memorial markers completely. They described in detail how the executions of the men were done which was kinda grisly (at set command turn and fire on man next to you) complete with plans on how to prevent escape from survivors. The only part that would be controversial was a list of reasons Brigham Young was unlikely to have ordered the massacre however they were not described as being definitive proof.
I find the killing of the women and children more grisly then the men being shot.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
barrelomonkeys wrote:I find the killing of the women and children more grisly then the men being shot.
I agree with you but I was referring to which parts the article described in more detail (going off memory).
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo