GBH wants to keep Mountain Meadows in LDS hands ....

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I don't know. Stuff like that makes me tired.


That's because you're a nicer person than I am, runtu. Plus, I have completely given up on any hope of meaningful dialog between believing LDS and exLDS. That's why I view it all as entertainment alone.

If I were in your situation, though, with a believing family you're trying to learn to bridge the gap with, I'd take it seriously, too.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

I'm a little confused. Doesn't the Church own the site? Allowing it to be administered by someone else is their perogative isn't it? Was there a valid and fair offer to buy the site or is it pressure to allow someone else to oversee the memorial area?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

The Nehor wrote:I'm a little confused. Doesn't the Church own the site? Allowing it to be administered by someone else is their perogative isn't it? Was there a valid and fair offer to buy the site or is it pressure to allow someone else to oversee the memorial area?


The more I know about the folks doing the demanding, the more inclined I am to agree that they are not exactly acting in good faith. That said, I have repeatedly stated that the families should out of common courtesy be granted some say in how the memorial is handled.
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_capt jack
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Post by _capt jack »

Only they are allowed to speak their minds. Mormons may not react unless they agree.


Au contraire, Juliann, as an ex-Mormon I love it when you guys speak out. I've always said the best anti-Mormon literature is written by Mormons, and your little board is a gold mine.

No need to spin or quote out of context--the work you and some of the other, dumber posters over there do is invaluable. You make Ed Decker look like the piker and cheap-jack hustler he is.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Au contraire, Juliann, as an ex-Mormon I love it when you guys speak out. I've always said the best anti-Mormon literature is written by Mormons, and your little board is a gold mine.

No need to spin or quote out of context--the work you and some of the other, dumber posters over there do is invaluable. You make Ed Decker look like the piker and cheap-jack hustler he is.


No kidding. I am completely amazed that she does not understand this in the least.

Well, of course, I realize she wouldn't agree with the Ed Decker comparison, or the dumber part, but if she doesn't realize that the reason exmormons pay attention to them is because exmormons believe that these vocal internet apologists do more damage to LDS truth claims than a nut like Decker could ever do, she has completely missed the point.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Runtu wrote:The more I know about the folks doing the demanding, the more inclined I am to agree that they are not exactly acting in good faith.


Huh?
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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Since its inception, haven't the grave markers or monument been torn down or vandalized several times? I wonder if the memory of this is disturbing the Massacre descendants?
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Blixa wrote:
Runtu wrote:The more I know about the folks doing the demanding, the more inclined I am to agree that they are not exactly acting in good faith.


Huh?


Apparently, there are two different organizations (the MMA and the MMF), the latter of which is the one doing the demanding. Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem to be rather hostile and axe-grinding.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

moksha wrote:Since its inception, haven't the grave markers or monument been torn down or vandalized several times? I wonder if the memory of this is disturbing the Massacre descendants?


I would think it is. "The church" did nothing about the markers...except BY's tearing the first one down, then random locals both rebuilding and scattering the stones over and over (I find both heroes and villians among the southern utah settlers)...until the 30's I think. Then there is another history of neglect.

There is an interesting history here in and of itself...if I can pull it all together soon I'll post about it.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Image

History Of The Grave Sites:

1857: The Arkansas Emigrants buried the bodies of ten men killed during the five-day siege somewhere within the circled wagons of the encampment located west of the current (1999) monument in the valley.

1859: Brevet Major James H. Carleton, commanding some eighty soldiers of the First Dragoons from Fort Tejon, California, gathered scattered bones representing the partial remains of thirty-six of the emigrants, interred them near the wagon camp, and erected a stone cairn at the site. The stone cairn was topped with a cedar cross and a small granite marker was set against the north side of the cairn and dated 20 May 1859. (Before Carleton�s arrival, Captains Reuben T. Campbell and Charles Brewer along with 207 men from Camp Floyd, Utah, collected and buried the remains of twenty-six emigrants in three different graves on the west side of the California Road about one and one-half miles north of the original encampment. Brewer reported that �the remains of [an additional] 18 were buried in one grave, 12 in another and 6 in another.� Most of the Arkansas Emigrants died at various locations northeast of the 1859 memorial.)

1932: The Utah Trails and Landmarks Association built a protective stone wall around the 1859 grave site in September 1932, and installed a bronze marker. This Association�s president was George Albert Smith of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and later President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1999: Under the direction of President Gordon B. Hinckley and with the cooperation of the Mountain Meadows Association and others, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints replaced the 1932 wall and installed the present Grave Site Memorial.

On August 3rd, 1999, workers excavating for the wall around the new monument accidently uncovered the 1859 Carleton grave. On September 10th, 1999, the remains recovered from that grave were re-interred in a burial vault inside the new wall, during a private ceremony.

The monument was dedicated the following day, September 11, 1999.

The victims: The names of the Arkansas Emigrants who died on September 11th, 1857, along with the names of the children who survived and were returned to their relatives in 1859, are engraved on the 1990 Monument.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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