Meaning and Existence

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_Analytics
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Post by _Analytics »

dartagnan wrote:It is interesting how some things appear meaningful to some and meaningless to others. Even more interesting is that those who find certain things meaningful, automatically assume others will also.


I was just thinking the same thing as I was reading A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. (It even inspired me to change sigs!)
Cranly, embarrassed for a moment, took another fig from his pocket and was about to eat it when Stephen said, “Don’t please. You cannot discuss this question with your mouth full of chewed fig.”

Cranly examined the fig by the light of a lamp under which he halted. Then he smelt it with both nostrils, bit a tiny piece, spat it out and threw the fig rudely into the gutter. Addressing it as it lay, he said, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!”

Taking Stephen’s arm, he went on again and said, “Do you not fear that those words may be spoken to you on the day of judgment?”

“What is offered me on the other hand?” Stephen asked. “An eternity of bliss in the company of the dean of studies?”

~James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Speaking of "Families are Forever"...

When I joined the church as a child, my father was agnostic (still is), and my mother who converted a few years after I, was not sealed to anyone.

I used to sing Familes can be together Forever, with a sinking feeling that I would be alone for eternity, without my parents or sibling.

Not such a nice thought for a young child. It is enought to create some serious harm, in my opinion.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

truth dancer wrote:Speaking of "Families are Forever"...

When I joined the church as a child, my father was agnostic (still is), and my mother who converted a few years after I, was not sealed to anyone.

I used to sing Familes can be together Forever, with a sinking feeling that I would be alone for eternity, without my parents or sibling.

Not such a nice thought for a young child. It is enought to create some serious harm, in my opinion.

~dancer~


Especially since the notion of eternally sealed nuclear families doesn't quite jibe with the actual doctrine and its consequences. I'm quite sure my wife and some of my kids probably feel the same way you did.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Analytics wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Believers say that life without God has no meaning. But what exactly is the meaning of life with God? Seriously, so you imagine you'll live in the Celestial Kingdom forever. How is that meaningful? Because God said so? Is that sufficient to give meaning, that God says so? Why?


My thoughts exactly. That is why I like Coggins post; he is addressing why he believes that the universe has meaning.

No he's not. He's asserting that the universe has meaning if it was created with a specific purpose. One of his arguments is that human-created things (even if we think they have a purpose) don't accrue meaning because the humans that created them themselves have no meaning, and something meaningless (in his argument) cannot create meaning in something else.

His universe gets to have meaning because God created it, and he asserts that God has meaning, therefor something can get meaning because it was created for a purpose by a meaningful entity. However, he is simply asserting that God himself has meaning, without any proof, or evidence, that he does. That doesn't work.

His argument is really baseless until he can demonstrate that God has meaning, and that the purposes for which God creates things can then have meaning.

He also cannot just assert that something (a human) that has no inherent meaning, by his definition, cannot create something meaningful. His just saying so doesn't cut it.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Sethbag wrote:No he's not. He's asserting that the universe has meaning if it was created with a specific purpose. One of his arguments is that human-created things (even if we think they have a purpose) don't accrue meaning because the humans that created them themselves have no meaning, and something meaningless (in his argument) cannot create meaning in something else.

His universe gets to have meaning because God created it, and he asserts that God has meaning, therefor something can get meaning because it was created for a purpose by a meaningful entity. However, he is simply asserting that God himself has meaning, without any proof, or evidence, that he does. That doesn't work.

His argument is really baseless until he can demonstrate that God has meaning, and that the purposes for which God creates things can then have meaning.

He also cannot just assert that something (a human) that has no inherent meaning, by his definition, cannot create something meaningful. His just saying so doesn't cut it.


Exactly. His argument (and Beckwith's by extension) rests on the fault premise that unless there is some external intentionality for existence, that existence has no meaning. Both Coggins and Beckwith take that assertion (and that's all it is) as a self-evident truism. It's not, and once you realize that, the entire construct collapses.

But what do I know? I'm not capable of intellectual seriousness. ;)
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Sethbag wrote:No he's not. He's asserting that the universe has meaning if it was created with a specific purpose. One of his arguments is that human-created things (even if we think they have a purpose) don't accrue meaning because the humans that created them themselves have no meaning, and something meaningless (in his argument) cannot create meaning in something else.

His universe gets to have meaning because God created it, and he asserts that God has meaning, therefor something can get meaning because it was created for a purpose by a meaningful entity. However, he is simply asserting that God himself has meaning, without any proof, or evidence, that he does. That doesn't work.

His argument is really baseless until he can demonstrate that God has meaning, and that the purposes for which God creates things can then have meaning.

He also cannot just assert that something (a human) that has no inherent meaning, by his definition, cannot create something meaningful. His just saying so doesn't cut it.


Exactly. His argument (and Beckwith's by extension) rests on the faulty premise that unless there is some external intentionality for existence, that existence has no meaning. Both Coggins and Beckwith take that assertion (and that's all it is) as a self-evident truism. It's not, and once you realize that, the entire construct collapses.

But what do I know? I'm not capable of intellectual seriousness. ;)
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

No he's not. He's asserting that the universe has meaning if it was created with a specific purpose. One of his arguments is that human-created things (even if we think they have a purpose) don't accrue meaning because the humans that created them themselves have no meaning, and something meaningless (in his argument) cannot create meaning in something else.



This is only partially correct. I'm not simply asserting, but pointing out a logically necessity that limits what either atheists or anyone else can actually rationally claim about the concept of meaning as it applies to the universe and their place within it. The secularists and atheists here stubbornly refuse to face the music here because doing so puts the kibosh on their entire world view. I understand that this is threatening, for a number of reasons.

There is no bare assertion about it. It must be the case that if the universe is nothing more than a product of blind, random chance, then any meaning we ascribe to our existence here is a subjective fantasy that may have meaning to us, but has no intrinsic meaning or transcendent value beyond that subjective ascription. It is a fantasy because it has no actual relation to the actual universe, which is a cold, uncaring,impersonal place created through fortuitous accident and which will eventually return to the chaos from which it came (or end as a cold, dead universe devoid of light, heat, or activity).

The subjective fantasy that says "I have meaning" is in this world a psychological defense and mediator between oneself and the random, accidental cosmos. It works as long as we believe it, but it is, in the final analysis, a fiction. The reality still presents to us the fact that each individual death ends everything that individual ever though, said, dreamed, or achieved, and the collective death of the species ends humankind and everything it ever thought, said, dreamed, or achieved. Nothing matters in any sense external to our personal subjective illusions of meaning, and that is what matters.

This is logically implied by the metaphysical materialist conception of the universe, and is hardly simply a baseless assertion.


His universe gets to have meaning because God created it, and he asserts that God has meaning, therefor something can get meaning because it was created for a purpose by a meaningful entity. However, he is simply asserting that God himself has meaning, without any proof, or evidence, that he does. That doesn't work.


Again we see the holy grail of "evidence" and "proof" used as a mechanism to avoid doing the hard work required by the principle of faith. Secularists can hide behind this hobby horse until the cows come home, but regardless, cannot escape the inherent philosophical consequences of what they do believe; a world in which all moral and ethical systems are arbitrary and in which this very conversation has no meaning whatsoever since neither of our positions exist in a universe in which meaning provides a context within which our positions could be relevant.


His argument is really baseless until he can demonstrate that God has meaning, and that the purposes for which God creates things can then have meaning.

He also cannot just assert that something (a human) that has no inherent meaning, by his definition, cannot create something meaningful. His just saying so doesn't cut it.



Seth is just stalling for philosophical time here. The very concept of God implies teleology, and teleology explicitly implies meaning (teleology is purpose, and purpose (what something is for), must imply meaning (actualizing that purpose).
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Sorry Coggins, but God doesn't get to have "meaning" in this argument until you can demonstrate that he should, and does. You cannot just assert that he has meaning. You're waving your magic wand around, but it isn't working. You are asserting here that God has meaning because... God has meaning. Just because. That's why.

Nope. Back to Tarski's phrase, what is it about an entity procreating spirit babies forever that is inherently more "meaningful" than anything we do here? Because it lasts forever? So is simple duration the meaningful factor here? What is it, Coggins? Or can't you articulate why God, or Celestial existence has meaning, apart from just asserting that it does?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Exactly. His argument (and Beckwith's by extension) rests on the faulty premise that unless there is some external intentionality for existence, that existence has no meaning. Both Coggins and Beckwith take that assertion (and that's all it is) as a self-evident truism. It's not, and once you realize that, the entire construct collapses.

But what do I know? I'm not capable of intellectual seriousness. ;)



You are running from the Jaws of the logical trap Beckwith closed on Dawkin's by inserting a red herring you have called "external intentionality", but this is neither alters the logical contradiction the Atheist finds himself in or provides a alternative to the subjective fictional nature of all ascriptions of meaning or the relativity of all morality in a random, accidental cosmos.

To say that Beckwith's argument rests on a faulty premise that "unless there is some external intentionality for existence, that existence has no meaning" just begs the question of whether or not there is such an external intentionality. It does nothing to alter Beckwith's major point, that if there is, and unless there is, it must be the case that life has no meaning. The point really is not whether there is or is not an external intentionality. The point is that if there isn't, then your only option is relativism and nihilism, mediated by one's own internal fictions of meaning.

You are all trying to salvage personal meaneing in a random, accidental, meaningless universe by clinging to your subjective fantasy constructs that tell you it does have meaning. Nobody is trying to deny you your fantasies. All we're saying is that external to, or outside the parameters of your own mental universe, those beliefs break down because the nature of the universe itself does not support those beliefs.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Sethbag wrote:Sorry Coggins, but God doesn't get to have "meaning" in this argument until you can demonstrate that he should, and does. You cannot just assert that he has meaning. You're waving your magic wand around, but it isn't working. You are asserting here that God has meaning because... God has meaning. Just because. That's why.


Again, the argument rests on the idea that there is no meaning unless there is external intent behind the physical universe. Repeating that such a position is obvious and logical does not make it so. And as you correctly point out, the idea is quite circular. External intent or "purpose" is no more meaningful than subjective evaluation of the universe. If life is an ongoing perpetuation of accumulated experience and value, it is by nature meaningful, whether someone or something created it intentionally.

Nope. Back to Tarski's phrase, what is it about an entity procreating spirit babies forever that is inherently more "meaningful" than anything we do here? Because it lasts forever? So is simple duration the meaningful factor here? What is it, Coggins? Or can't you articulate why God, or Celestial existence has meaning, apart from just asserting that it does?


I would suspect he can't, but I'm looking forward to his response.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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