LDS "world famous scholar" publishes book

[_why me]

What will the subject of your talk be? "Do as I say, not as I do"? Figures.

Put your money where your mouth is Ray. Actions speak louder than words.

When Ray A. begins to calm down, he will talk about love. Why we need to love those who attack the church. The corner stone of the Bible is to love your accuser and attacker.

[_Ray A]

Put your money where your mouth is Ray. Actions speak louder than words.

That will not stop me, Porter. Thrown your accusations, but I will defend the Book of Mormon until the day I die. MY hypocrisy has NOTHING to do with the truth of that book!

[_why me]

Oh you and half of the world "live the word of wisdom" YAWN.

And like that half of the world, you do not attend Mormon church services, not for the past THIRTY YEARS. You said so yourself!

Hey everyone, this is a returning board member, his name is Hungry Hungry HYPO-crite!

Actually, I do attend church services but I don't do callings or give talks. I am a back bencher. Get it right the next time.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Actually, I do attend church services but I don't do callings or give talks. I am a back bencher. Get it right the next time.

Slacker.

[_dartagnan]

Is it any wonder that the educated LDS apologetic community specializing in Near Eastern Studies finds you disgusting and bigoted?

They have never indicated any such thing, publicly nor privately. Dan doesn’t talk to you so stop pretending he does. He told me his feelings towards you were the same as towards me, which is why he never responded to any of the threads you started at FAIR.

Do the people who praise you here know that the real reason you left Mormonism was the rejection you found because of your prejudices and nothing due to with the strength of arguments?

I haven’t left Mormonism, but thanks for showing your own hate and bigotry persisting in this falsehood. Again, if you would have continued the discussions you recently abandoned, you would see that you’re entirely ignorant on these matters. But you frequently abandon discussions you cannot control. You never respond to questions and you absolutely refuse to be corrected. This is because you are a product of that elitist environment called MES. Everything has to be explained in simple black and white terms. If someone disagrees with you they have to be uneducated, ignorant, bigoted or an undercover agent of Mossad. When it turns out they’re not, your entirely universe implodes as you are faced with the prospect that the philosophy you’ve been fed by your mentors doesn’t really work with reality.

When debate ensues, one can determine if I am right or wrong, but you’re scared to stick around to find out because you know I am right. This makes it difficult to maintain the bigotry argument because your entire thesis rests on the assumption that I am wrong. But you only keep asserting I’m wrong, yet never demonstrate. You never take the Pepsi challenge and answer questions. Ultimately, if I am really an ignorant bigot, then this says more about BYU Islam experts; it shows that even an ignorant bigot can refute the nonsense they try to pass off as scholarship.

Your complaint about me is that I am a bigot because I follow my prejudices. You have never demonstrated such prejudices exist. I follow educated scholars who disagree with your apologetic viewpoint of Islam. It is really that simple. You only responded to this once in your life by calling them "credentialed bigots." Ok, so where does that leave your argument that education cures bigotry? Flapping in the wind.

Of course you’re a recent convert to Islam so we can hardly expect you to play any role other than the victim. Victim hood seems to come with the territory once assuming the role of a pious Muslim. But I don’t know to many genuine victims who go out of their way to feel victimized. You stalk the christianforums.com website and while most other indicate their religious affiliation in their moniker, you say you're a "seeker" while stating you have "no respect for Christians" (which you would call bigotry if applied to Muslims) and that you view Islam as a "noble religion." You don't seem to think people should know you're actually a Muslim who is simply bragging about his own religion. Why? Is lying to your audience an Islamic virtue that has helped make you a better person since your conversion?

About my recent history at FAIR, the brawls that have taken place between me and various LDS scholars have had virtually nothing to do with Islam. I’d venture to guess that 90% of what I have posted in the last two years was directly related to the failure of Book of Abraham apologetics; the other 8% being related to peripheral apologetic issues. Every once in a while I have the opportunity to comment on Islamic topics, but this has hardly been the reason they “reject” me. My separation from that lot has had to do with my rejection of them just the same. I knew where my actions would lead me, yet I made them anyway because I decided to put truth and accuracy before social conveniences. And yes, my arguments have persuaded many, though they were initially intended to challenge those in the apologetic community, not lead others away. Ultimately, I have just as much rejected them as they have rejected me. You seem to think it damages my credibility to have been rejected by that lot. You’re probably the only person who does, but the irony is that they rejected you as well. Does that damage your credibility?

Nevertheless continue spewing hate, it does not really need to be elaborated on.

So according to you it is “spewing hate” to simply correct falsehoods?

You have not even begun to touch upon the issues, even though you claim to be in an advantageous “educated” position to do so. Show me how the BYU experts are correct in their assertions. Heal me of this virus you insist I have. Stop the spread of the bigotry epidemic. Be a hero. By your own arguments, only people like you can cure the disease. If you don’t, then you’re just a part of the problem.

I don’t know anyone who has been cured of a disease through rhetorical submission.

This is what you have done now for more than three years. You follow me around on the internet just to offer non answers and pummel me with bigot-baiting rhetoric. You actually think people are impressed with this, as if anyone gives a damn about your personal grudges. People want the truth, and they want to see arguments pro and con and deduce from these the most probable conclusion. I always offer arguments based on evidence. You never do.

[_Pumplehoober]

They have never indicated any such thing, publicly nor privately. Dan doesn’t talk to you so stop pretending he does. He told me his feelings towards you were the same as towards me, which is why he never responded to any of the threads you started at FAIR.

Really? What an odd thing to say. The truth is far different. In truth your research is abysmally sloppy, you're simply not very intelligent, and you lie like a used car salesman. Consider your comments about Oxford University Press. You said,

“The fact is, even Oxford University Press publishes some truly crap apologetic nonsense when it comes to Islam. Karen Armstrong for example, is not an Islamic scholar. She is not able to read Arabic or analyze the relevant material. She is an ex-Catholic with an axe to grind and she does so by praising Catholicisms historic enemy. ¯et ,people at Oxford will publish her on things Islamic because of her pro-Islam/anti-Christian views. Her views are so absuurd that they even make Dan raise his eyebrows (I.e. Muhammad was like Ghandi!).”

Yet you never bothered to find out that Oxford has not published anything Armstrong has written about Islam. This fact was not important to your hate, though, so it was not researched. A simple websearch could have proven this. Simple reading, which you have lied about (I know you never read the books you claim to, you always find quotes that appear on the internet), would have shown this.

The fact is I see no reason to argue with you. I would not argue with a Klansman or any other bigot. If you think you are not prejudiced and that you have not been rejected by Mormon apologists for this reason, continue to believe it. The truth has never been your strong point.

I looked on the internet and do you know how many places you go to spread your hate? It's quite astounding. Jedi Forums? I mean really!?!?!

[_Ray A]

Now, if one's field is spin doctoring, or trying to keep oneself in a state of mind where one can keep believing in the most demonstrably false claims imaginable (whether Mormon, Nation of Islam, or Moonie), then Dan Peterson, and every other one of those FARMS guys, and every other counterpart in every other crazy religion or cause, are all highly successful. But, except for rare cases, they are not also "highly successful" in what should be their academic disciplines, in the sense of being "well-regarded scholars". And I can hardly believe that you would cite the regard of Owen and Mosser, who themselves are apologists for fraud (and you yourself necessarily agree with me on that, if you believe that Mormonism is the only true religion) and aren't exactly Rodney Stark and Paula Fredericksen in their own reputations, as evidence that your man Peterson is a "well-respected scholar" in his academic field. Truly embarrassing.

Tal, thanks for the rant. Always appreciated. I'll reply in more detail later, but I'm wondering, do you realise that Rodney Stark was saying, in the 1980s, that Mormonism is mainstream? Yes, Tal, the religion you call a "cult", and liken to Jim Jones, and David Koresh, was being called "mainstream" by Stark. Jus'wonderin' what you tink bout dis, Tal???

[_dartagnan]

Really? What an odd thing to say. The truth is far different. In truth your research is abysmally sloppy, you're simply not very intelligent, and you lie like a used car salesman. Consider your comments about Oxford University Press. You said,

Your failure to understand the difference between present perfect and future tenses, isn't my problem. I have no doubt Armstrong could be published by Oxford if she tried. They love her over there now, even though Oxford initially rejected her attempts to get a Ph.D. Her book is used in classes on Islam at BYU and elsewhere, so my point still stands. She is not qualified to speak on Islamic issues, but the academy embraces her as an authority anyway. Why? Because she is an activist with the same agenda. Truth is not important. This is why you like her as well. I never will forget the comment you made about the necessity of having an Arabic background, in order to have an informed perspective on Islam; you had no idea Armstrong, one of your favorite speakers, couldn't read or speak Arabic.

And I need not remind you that you initially stated that Daniel Pipes “isn’t published by academic presses,” when in fact he is. When I called you on your error you tried to wiggle out of your statement by saying you were not technically incorrect since Pipes isn’t currently in the process of being published by academic presses. That little exercise in futility was priceless. The difference between us is that I will admit my errors when my errors are shown.

That you would continue to accuse me of lying is amazing. You lie right now when you continue to call me an ex-Mormon, and you do so without shame. You need me to be an ex-Mormon, but I'm not going to leave the Church because you want me to, sorry.

The fact is I see no reason to argue with you.

Then you are a traitor to your own philosophy. Given your frequent rants about how education and knowledge dispel bigotry, you have every reason in the world to “educate” me. But you won’t, because you can’t. Calling me less than intelligent is Ok, because I underatand that this is just your way of venting frustration at the fact that you've never been able to hold your own aganst me in debate. You've always have to lower the level of discourse to ad hominem and meaningless bigot-baiting. Is this what you consider getting your money's worth at University?

Saying you've never seen a reason to argue with me flies in the face of the fact that you have - but lost. You quickly realized you were not going to win much of anything while trying to push the usual apologetic fluff, so you decided to stick to internet harrassment and character assassinations. But this has more to do with that super ego of yours that doesn't like to face the prospect of losing arguments; especially to ignorant bigots.

I would not argue with a Klansman or any other bigot.

But you’d stalk a Klansman for four years running, following him around on the internet wherever he went just to say to his immediate audience, “hey he’s a bigot”? Really mature Tradd. But your problem is that you’re no longer on FAIR and I seriously doubt anyone is bothering to read this. People here have higher standards or truth and demand arguments, not bald assertions. They’re not emotionally invested in anything we’re discussing. And if you think being rejected by FAIR is somehow going to work as a knock against me, then you’re really out of touch with your environment.

If you think you are not prejudiced and that you have not been rejected by Mormon apologists for this reason, continue to believe it. The truth has never been your strong point.

Well, I have never once been told by any of them that they reject me because of my prejudice. They have told me that they refuse to speak with you because of your distasteful method and aggressive nature, and they’ve said similar things about me as well, but the fact is they only started rejecting me when I decided to apply the critical thinking skills inward. They didn’t like that. They didn’t like having their own apologetic trophies challenged. Everyone who knows anything about the history knows you’re wrong and I’m right. The facts undermine your ignorance. Anyone can visit the FAIR board and see why I was banned. It had absolutely nothing to do with Islam, bigotry or prejudice. It had everything to do with challenging the claims of LDS scholars, whom the Mods admittedly “protect” over there.

I looked on the internet and do you know how many places you go to spread your hate? It's quite astounding. Jedi Forums? I mean really!?!?!

Jedi Forums?? Have a link? I have been invited to many places, but Jedi Forums doesn’t ring any bells.

But wherever I go Tradd, I do not lie to my audience and conceal my religious affiliation while speaking highly of it as though I were some kind of outside, objective observer. I mean this is truly pathetic Tradd. Is Islam’s image in such dire straits that it needs its adherents to go trouncing around the web while posing as non-Muslims who think Islam is a “noble religion.” And in the same breathe saying you have no respect for Christians?

I wonder if the BYU experts on Islam, who profess to be Christians, know how you feel about them. I mean according to your own words, BYU should probably be shut down anyway.

[_Pumplehoober]

Your failure to understand the difference between present perfect and future tenses, isn't my problem. I have no doubt Armstrong could be published by Oxford if she tried.

And yet she has not.

She is not qualified to speak on Islamic issues, but the academy embraces her as an authority anyway.

Neither are you or Robert Spencer, but that does not stop you.

And I need not remind you that you initially stated that Daniel Pipes “isn't published by academic presses,” when in fact he is.

And here is a blatant lie, but I will let you prove it. Where is the reference? Here is where Kevin will bluster and refuse to look, which he will probably later lie about (he has done this in the past).

That you would continue to accuse me of lying is amazing.

You have lied before, it is not like it is unusual. I can provide references.

You lie right now when you continue to call me an ex-Mormon, and you do so without shame. You need me to be an ex-Mormon, but I'm not going to leave the Church because you want me to, sorry.

You are no longer a believing Mormon. I suppose you could claim some sort of official membership, but it would just be a pretense.

Then you are a traitor to your own philosophy. Given your frequent rants about how education and knowledge dispel bigotry, you have every reason in the world to “educate” me. But you won't, because you can't.

You're a bigot. Education does no good. You have access to it, but you refuse to read or study. Your plagiarism proves this.

Calling me less than intelligent is Ok, because I underatand that this is just your way of venting frustration at the fact that you've never been able to hold your own aganst me in debate. You've always have to lower the level of discourse to ad hominem and meaningless bigot-baiting. Is this what you consider getting your money's worth at University?

You can bluster all you like, but the fact is you are a mediocre mind and your “research” proves this. Yelling about it does not change this. I say you are not intelligent because you are simply not. You lack the mental discipline to conduct real research and study.

Saying you've never seen a reason to argue with me flies in the face of the fact that you have - but lost.

Really? Where? Reference.

So you decided to stick to internet harrassment and character assassinations. But this has more to do with that super ego of yours that doesn't like to face the prospect of losing arguments; especially to ignorant bigots.

Odd. I never seem to feel the need to spread your name around the internet, but the reverse is never true.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showth ... 677&page=2

Oddly enough you did not even get my job right. Not that this is surprising.

But you'd stalk a Klansman for four years running, following him around on the internet wherever he went just to say to his immediate audience, “hey he's a bigot”? Really mature Tradd. But your problem is that you're no longer on FAIR and I seriously doubt anyone is bothering to read this. People here have higher standards or truth and demand arguments, not bald assertions. They're not emotionally invested in anything we're discussing. And if you think being rejected by FAIR is somehow going to work as a knock against me, then you're really out of touch with your environment.

Stalk? I do not seem to be the one spreading your name around cyberspace. How many times have you referenced me here? I do not seem to be the one obsessed with you, quite the opposite. Unless responding to you I rarely think of you at all.

Everyone who knows anything about the history knows you're wrong and I'm right. The facts undermine your ignorance. Anyone can visit the FAIR board and see why I was banned. It had absolutely nothing to do with Islam, bigotry or prejudice. It had everything to do with challenging the claims of LDS scholars, whom the Mods admittedly “protect” over there.

Everyone knows except the educated of your own lamely claimed religious belief system? Are you claiming you were not considered prejudiced? Really? Are you claiming people did not reference your bigotry?

Jedi Forums?? Have a link? I have been invited to many places, but Jedi Forums doesn't ring any bells.

Naturally. That is the difference between you and I. I do research.

As Aselahx:

http://boards.theforce.net/the_senate_f ... 667674/p10

Do you realize how much hate you have spewed all over the internet?

[_harmony]

Do you realize how much hate you have spewed all over the internet?

The truth is not hateful, no matter how hard it is to accept.