Who Knows wrote:Are you serious? Did you grow up in the church? Are you familiar with the primary song "follow the prophet" or sayings like "the prophet will never lead us astray" or "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done" etc. etc.
If a person is a Mormon, that individual will believe that the prophet will never lead a person astray. However, a person is not conditioned to follow the prophet blindly. The questioning process needs to come into play. Usually, however, after questioning the revelation, a person can usually see the logic of the revelation.
What if your questioning leads you to believe the Prophet is leading the church astray? What happened to those who questioned doctrines or followed their consience to fight polygamy in the 19th century? What would have happened if I had spoken out against the racism in the church? If answers to my prayers go against the church doctrines, how do I approach that without being hauled into a church court?
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that the church teaches black and white thinking. For example, here is an excerpt from a conference talk in 2003 by Gordon B. Hinckley about Loyalty. As you can see, the prophet discourages such black and white thinking and preaches the importance of thinking for yourselves and choosing those apsects of Mormonism that work for you while ignoring those that don't.
In 1933, there was a movement in the United States to overturn the law which prohibited commerce in alcoholic beverages. When it came to a vote, Utah was the deciding state.
I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, "Utah Kills Prohibition."
President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.
On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.
How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.
Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
A Light in the Darkness wrote:I don't see what is wrong with thinking one should strive to what is right everytime all the time while also acknowledging that all of us, no matter how we serve God, will on occasion fail to meet this goal.
I see nothing wrong with that thinking, either. It may surprise you to learn that this hell-bound apostate still tries to do what is right, every time, all the time, though I no longer view what is "right" the same way I once did. Like all mortals, I sometimes fail miserably. However, unlike Joseph Smith, I do not claim to speak directly to God. I do not claim any special revelation, which if it comes from God, should certainly be infallible. I do not claim to have received divine command to practice polygamy and then lie about it in public. I do not claim that when I speak, the thinking has been done for every one else. I do not claim to be a prophet and then claim not to know the doctrine of my own church on national television.
And really, in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not Smith was above reproach. It is my opinion that the first vision never occurred and that there were no gold plates, so anything else is ancillary. Smith lying about polygamy isn't what makes the church false. The fact that he lied about seeing God does.
To find middle ground in religion is difficult and usually those faiths that do leave a lot of grey, seem to fall by the wayside.
Precisely. Think Unitarians, RLDS, and the liberal Protestant denominaitions. People who want grey areas just want to keep their options open out in left field.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
Coggins7 wrote:Precisely. Think Unitarians, RLDS, and the liberal Protestant denominaitions. People who want grey areas just want to keep their options open out in left field.
Coggins, the Mormon church wants it's membership to operate in black and white, while at the same time allowing it's leadership to operate in the grey. Members are punished, excommunicated even, for the same offenses for which Joseph Smith is excused! There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is teeming with hypocrisy.
SatanWasSetUp wrote:I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea that the church teaches black and white thinking. For example, here is an excerpt from a conference talk in 2003 by Gordon B. Hinckley about Loyalty. As you can see, the prophet discourages such black and white thinking and preaches the importance of thinking for yourselves and choosing those apsects of Mormonism that work for you while ignoring those that don't.
In 1933, there was a movement in the United States to overturn the law which prohibited commerce in alcoholic beverages. When it came to a vote, Utah was the deciding state.
I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, "Utah Kills Prohibition."
President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.
On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.
How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.
Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
Seven wrote:What if your questioning leads you to believe the Prophet is leading the church astray? What happened to those who questioned doctrines or followed their consience to fight polygamy in the 19th century? What would have happened if I had spoken out against the racism in the church? If answers to my prayers go against the church doctrines, how do I approach that without being hauled into a church court?
Pray, respect the authority the leaders hold and pray for them. Do good continually.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Coggins, the Mormon church wants it's membership to operate in black and white, while at the same time allowing it's leadership to operate in the grey.
Nonsense. You are a slanderer and a moral poseur, and you are accountable for both your intellectual and moral tendentiousness.
Members are punished, excommunicated even, for the same offenses for which Joseph Smith is excused!
Pure nonsense. Joseph Smith never committed any excommuicatable offense and neither you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of direct, verifiable evidence that he did. Slander on.
There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".
Evidence?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
Coggins7 wrote:Pure nonsense. Joseph Smith never committed any excommuicatable offense and neither you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of direct, verifiable evidence that he did. Slander on.
Joseph married women who were already married to other men. That's called adultery (among other things). That's an excommunicatable offense, even today. Try doing that today, and see how far you get. Heck, try marrying multiple women who aren't married to anyone else, and watch how fast you're excommunicated.
Geez, Loran. You sound like an idiot when you make claims any of us can chop down.
There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".
Evidence?
Delve into the financials, Loran. There's enough there to ex any number of our leaders. Were Kim to use church funds as badly as they've used church funds, she'd be out on her ear in a heartbeat. They are exempt though, because they are the foxes in charge of the henhouse.
Coggins, the Mormon church wants it's membership to operate in black and white, while at the same time allowing it's leadership to operate in the grey.
Nonsense. You are a slanderer and a moral poseur, and you are accountable for both your intellectual and moral tendentiousness.
Members are punished, excommunicated even, for the same offenses for which Joseph Smith is excused!
Pure nonsense. Joseph Smith never committed any excommuicatable offense and neither you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of direct, verifiable evidence that he did. Slander on.
There is a terrible double standard that exists in the Mormon church to this day - prophets, when not in a prophetic mode, are excused for their transgressions because they're just men. But if I as a member committed transgressions, I wouldn't be excused for being just a woman. I would be held accountable, sometimes harshly, for my "sins".
Evidence?
Are you saying prophets have not preached their own opinions, tried to pass them off as doctrine when it clearly was not, and NOT been disciplined for it? Margaret Toscano tried to teach about Heavenly Mother, she was excommunicated. Brigham Young tried to teach that Adam was God, he was not excommunicated. Mark Peterson, Joseph Fielding Smith and others taught racist theories in an attempt to justify the priesthood ban. These statements are now considered simply "their opinions" yet they were never disciplined for attempting to pass off their opinions as doctrine. Joseph Smith was accused of committing adultery multiple times, the rules of polygamy written in D&C 132 says a man must marry unwed women, otherwise it is adultery, JOseph married women who were already married, which was adultery even by the rules of polygamy, yet no disciplinary courts were held. Disciplinary courts are held on a regular basis for members accused of adultery.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks