DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

[_Dan Vogel]

Before we go further what do you think of the reliabilty of the witnesses who Dan gives much respect to for the "Head in the Hat" trick. What do you think of the reliabillity of the statements of Cowdery, D. Whitmer, J. Whitmer, Emma, M. Morse, I. Hale, M. Harris and anyone else who was a witness?

I'm not in the position to present lengthy testimony and analysis from witnesses such as that Dan Vogal has given, but I would certainly give the most weight (of your choices given) to Isaac Hale and Martin Harris. The Whitmer's would come in second.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is there is almost always a selective presentation of evidence. It is the reason there is disclosure in trial cases.

If Dan Vogel would discuss either Emma Smith's or Oliver Cowdery's testimonies in detail (pick either one), I would be interested.

What is it that you want to know. Your request is too open-ended.

[_dilettante]

What is it that you want to know. Your request is too open-ended.

Actually, it was intended it to be open-ended. What I would be interested in reading would be an in-depth discussion of Emma Smith and/or Oliver Cowdery statements. These are the two closest (in my humble opinion) people involved with the Book of Mormon production, other than Joseph Smith Jr. himself.

---
When I think of all the harm [the Bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it.
Oscar Wilde

Oscar Wilde needed some instruction in combining humor, humility, and religion. (Also see John Lennon)

[_dilettante]

Edit a post just doesn't work on mormondiscussions.com

[_Uncle Dale]

If you want to really follow critical thinking...
one way is to follow Oliver Cowdery after 1844 and his law partner.

Just one way.

I recently came across the statement of a Strangite who left that church --
evidently at about the time Strang died. The fellow had visited Oliver Cowdery
during Cowdery's excommunicated years and Cowdery seems to have
advised him not to pursue Mormonism ---- I'll try locate the full quote, if I
can get to the BYU library in the next few days.

I have also uncovered some documention showing that Gadius Stafford,
who in 1867 was published to the world as a Joseph Smith follower, was
indeed living within walking distance of Sidney Rigdon's house near the
end of the 1820s (along with about 10 other Palmyra/Manchester families).
Unfortunately, I can find no pre-1829 evidence of Gad being in Rigdon's
neighborhood -- so he does not appear to be a likely candidate for being
the fellow who introduced Rigdon to Joe Smith.

Another supposed Palmyra/Manchester area guy, who was living near Rigdon
before Gad Stafford showed up (and who sold Stafford his Ohio farm) was
Ephraim Wright. I've found Ephraim (like Gad) in old Farmington/Manchester
public records, as well as in the Auburn, Ohio public records. But I cannot as
of yet prove that the two Ephraims were one in the same person.

At the very least, I think I can soon compile a list of people who were the
neighbors of Joe Smith, who were also the neighbors of Sidney Rigdon, and
all well before the Book of Mormon was published. I will try establish the
year when each of these interesting persons and their families moved from
Joe Smith's neighborhood to Rigdon's neighborhood in Ohio. If I can find
some who made the move in the spring of 1826 (right after Smith's trial in NY),
I may then be able to point out the likely companions Smith had during his
several "lost months" during the spring and summer of 1826 (when I think
he went to Ohio).

Tedious stuff -- but I'll do some serious searching for more evidence this week.

Uncle Dale
(currently in Park City, Utah)

[_Uncle Dale]

...

At the very least, I think I can soon compile a list of people who were the
neighbors of Joe Smith, who were also the neighbors of Sidney Rigdon, and
all well before the Book of Mormon was published....

Update: -- Thanks to "a little help from my friends" I was able to get hold
of the late Wes Walters' personal maps of the Palmyra area in 1820. The
next door neighbors to the NY Joseph Smith, Sr. family on the west were the
Antisdales -- some of whom had moved west to become Sidney Rigdon's
neighbors by that date.

Also, some of the next door neighbors to the NY Smith family on the south,
the Staffords, had done the same -- though a little later, it was still pre-BoM.

If I were to spread out a big USA map on a dining room table, and draw heavy
red arrows, for the migrations of the Manchester/Farmington, NY Antisdales,
Staffords, Harringtons, Colvins, Fishes, Wrights, Caprons, etc. etc. -- then at that
scale, the arrows would exactly span the distance and direction, from the doorstep
of the NY Smiths, to the doorstep of the Ohio Rigdon family.

Further evidence, I think, in support of the early testimony of George Wilber,
Dency Thompson, Isaac Butts, the Henry family, and other early Ohio pioneers,
of the Rigdon-Mormon connection in Ohio, years before the publication of the Book of Mormon.

Uncle Dale
(leaving Utah for some much needed rest in Hawaii)

[_DonBradley]

Awesome, Dale! Congrats on the maps!

Hey, by the way, I will still be around Utah Valley on Saturday. If you need any help concluding your research at BYU, do let me know. I know where "Discipliana" is located, and am quite familiar with the archives and other library resources. (I used to work in the HBLL Archives, and have spent a great deal of time researching there.)

Don

[_DonBradley]

Unka Dale,

When you are once again settled into your home in the Sandwich Islands, I was hoping you might respond to this:

One of the most intriguing speculative write-ups I've seen on Book of Mormon origins was based on the premise of Spalding authorship. It posited several stages of composition and redaction, including Spalding creating a "patriarchal story" and later, I believe, a "lost tribes story." I thought the piece was by Uncle Dale, though it may have been by Ted Chandler. In either case, I can no longer locate it, either by browsing their respective websites or by any Google search I can think of. If this piece was by you, Uncle Dale, is it still online? And if it's not by you, do you (or any of you other discussants!) know where I can find it?

This little write-up was perhaps the only complete theory of Book of Mormon evolution that I've seen. I'd love to examine it again.

Don

[_Uncle Dale]

Unka Dale,

When you are once again settled into your home in the Sandwich Islands, I was hoping you might respond to this:

One of the most intriguing speculative write-ups I've seen on Book of Mormon origins was based on the premise of Spalding authorship. It posited several stages of composition and redaction, including Spalding creating a "patriarchal story" and later, I believe, a "lost tribes story." I thought the piece was by Uncle Dale, though it may have been by Ted Chandler. In either case, I can no longer locate it, either by browsing their respective websites or by any Google search I can think of. If this piece was by you, Uncle Dale, is it still online? And if it's not by you, do you (or any of you other discussants!) know where I can find it?

This little write-up was perhaps the only complete theory of Book of Mormon evolution that I've seen. I'd love to examine it again.

Don

From what little I read in that description, I cannot recall seeing exactly that sort of article, Don.

Numerous writers have reported/speculated that Solomon Spalding wrote more than one fictional
history -- but I have never encountered any definitive proof of that conclusion. That is, unless the
Book of Mormon itself be judged a Spalding creation.

Past writers who have considered the multiple Spalding stories possibility include:

1. Clark Braden (1884)
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/braden/1884BnKa.htm

2. William H. Whitsitt (1891)
http://sidneyrigdon.com/wht/1891WhtB.htm

3. James D. Bales (1958)
http://solomonspalding.com/Lib/1945jw1.htm#article3

4. Vernal Holley (1989)
http://sidneyrigdon.com/vern/vernP0.htm

5. Craig Criddle (2005)
http://mormonstudies.com/criddle/rigdon.htm

I have investigated this aspect of the authorship claims and have
placed a few odds and ends on the web, but have never come up
with any firm conclusions.

These days I'm pretty much focused on Sidney Rigdon's pre-1830
career, and am finding that line of study more productive for my curiosity
than further investigation of Spalding.

Cheers,
UD

[_dilettante]

DonBradley:

Unka Dale,

When you are once again settled into your home in the Sandwich Islands, I was hoping you might respond to this:

One of the most intriguing speculative write-ups I've seen on Book of Mormon origins was based on the premise of Spalding authorship. It posited several stages of composition and redaction, including Spalding creating a "patriarchal story" and later, I believe, a "lost tribes story." I thought the piece was by Uncle Dale, though it may have been by Ted Chandler. In either case, I can no longer locate it, either by browsing their respective websites or by any Google search I can think of. If this piece was by you, Uncle Dale, is it still online? And if it's not by you, do you (or any of you other discussants!) know where I can find it?

This little write-up was perhaps the only complete theory of Book of Mormon evolution that I've seen. I'd love to examine it again.

Don

You won't find any thing like that written by either Dale Broadhurst or Ted Chandler. The closest thing that I can recall to your description is the link that Dale gave for Craig Criddle at mormonstudies.com. This is an excellent web site on the subject.

I have investigated this aspect of the authorship claims and have placed a few odds and ends on the web, but have never come up with any firm conclusions.

If he did, we would know!

[_dilettante]

Since this thread is slowing and there is one point that I didn't want to die... As Dale mentioned earlier, I also believe there has to be a high probability in some connection between Ethen Smith and Solomon Spalding at Dartmouth College.

I am just not one who can believe in multiple coincidence.