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_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

About the condescension: I do have scorn for people - men (like you) and women alike - who continue to assert things contradicted by all the best evidence available, especially when those things have direct relevance to the question of how we ought to live.

1) The best evidence available contradicts you.

2) Your condescension was sexist while you were arguing a a dubious thesis that is oft used to justify rabid misogyny.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

A Light in the Darkness wrote:
There are innate differences between male and female brains. It turns out those innate differences do very little explain why, for example, men have traditionally done better on math tests than women in comparison to social factors. One of the things that should clue you into this is how performance gaps have changed in various nations in tandem with social changes towards gender roles. There are very few people who deny there are innate (hereditary) differences in male and female brains. But that is not what you are arguing. You are arguing that those differences are what explain differences in things like ability to read a map or verbal skills in men or women. The vast majority of academics you tried to say are on your side actually disagree with you at this point. They do this because the evidence against you is overwhelming (see, for instance, the paper I linked.)


1970's Tal: You don't think innate differences in brain structure explain the differences in men and women we observe? Oh yeah? Why don't you go to any university and count the male and female Ph.D's being awarded. Tell me what you find.

Semi-conscious person: The mere fact there is a difference between sexes in number of Ph.D's awarded doesn't favor your argument that those differences are caused by differences in genetic predisposition.

1970's Tal: Steven Pinker! Tacos. Blargh!

Semi-Conscious person: Ok....
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Light:

Is that really the best you've got? Hell, even Coggins7 - a man so disabled by his allegiance to Mormonism that he can't recognize the very same telling characteristics in it that he recognizes in feminism - knows what's up on this. To respond in point form:

1.) Re: your "hack" comment - this is quite the giveaway from you. Thanks.

Simon Baron-Cohen, as a human being, can be wrong; but no person who knows what they're talking about would ever call him a "hack" (that means you don't know what you're talking about). Baron-Cohen is a professor of developmental psychopathology at Cambridge University, is the director of Cambridge's Autism Research Centre, and has been at the forefront of autism and synaesthesia research for going on two decades. (It is actually the groundbreaking research he has published, in dozens of articles in the world's top academic [yes, peer-reviewed] journals, which got him the Spearman Medal and the McCandless Award). Perhaps you should take a few seconds and look up his CV. You can find it on the Cambridge website, I'm sure. (By the way, Light - do you prefer your crow minced or stewed?).

Amazing that you should call the director of Cambridge's ARC, and probably the top researcher in his field on the entire planet, a "hack". Also amazing, given the CVs of the researchers I mentioned by name, that you should make a comment like "have fun reading actual peer-reviewed research instead of pop-sci books", or describe psychologists like Cambridge's ARC director as "fringe" (also, I'm looking forward to your explanation of how "fringe" and "pop" aren't rather mutually exclusive designations).

How ignorant you sound here, Light.

Here, by the way, is a NY Times piece Baron-Cohen wrote on this issue, in case you're interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opini ... partner=Relief Society . Here is a link to a debate on this between Spelke and Pinker: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate0 ... index.html

2.) You quoted this: "The second problem, is that there's really no good evidence for Baron-Cohen's systematizing-empathizing distinction, and there aren't really any other explanations in cognitive science of the old stereotype that men like objects and women like people that get any attention". That's just not true. More below.

3.) I have no idea who "Mixing Memory" is. All I know is that your trust in this person's evaluations once again suggests a disconcerting lack of discrimination on your part. For example, MM, who you quote approvingly, claims that a regular columnist for the New York Times is a "rabid misogynist". Okay.......I suppose that's possible. But does that characteriztion not strike you, Light, as perhaps prima facie rather dubious? Is the NY Times a bastion of Christian fundamentalism or reactionary populism or something, that it should regularly feature a pathological hater of women as one of its most prominent columnists? Is the NY Times really a "fringe" paper, as your comments in totality necesssarily imply? Do you not find any reason to perhaps investigate this whole issue with more discretion?

"No", you say? I didn't think so...

4.)
You might as well tell people that evolution is false story held by dogmatic ideologues and then tell people to read Behe and Wells


Does that mean you subscribe to Darwinism? That's funny, Light - and here I thought you considered yourself to be a devout Mormon. Didn't you know that an official First Presidency statement states forthrightly that Latter-day Saint doctrine precludes Darwinian explanation for the origins of the human family? I'd like an answer to this one.

5.)
Simply going out and observing aggregate gender differences doesn't support your thesis


You're absolutely right - but since I'm talking to someone who, prior to this thread, had never heard that the word "gender" is actually loaded in its original context with ideological baggage, and who wouldn't even believe it when clued in, I was, to borrow a phrase, starting out with "milk before meat", just trying to get the ol' grey matter working on this, as it were. We have to start somewhere...

Smug in the Darkness,

My guess is that you've never read anything else through by Elizabeth Spelke than the essay you posted, have read very little, if anything, of the feminist writers you denied make the sort of claims they do (what else could have caused you to deny this but sheer ignorance?), have never read anything by Simon Baron-Cohen, have never read through a Pinker book (not saying they're all that, but still they ought to be read simply because EP [rather worryingly, in my view] is so influential these days), have zero clue about what Coggins alluded to in his reply here, and in general, are operating from a position of some ignorance here. Am I wrong?

Now, about the Spelke article. Just a few comments on things you seem entirely to have ignored.

Spelke states clearly that her article focuses on one very particular question: "Do men and women have equal cognitive capacities for math and science careers?" That is, as she herself states

"I...do not discuss sex differences in human preferences, motives, attitudes, temperament, or decisions. A complete account of men's and women's differing career paths must consider many kinds of sex differences, including differences in men's and women's attitudes toward science and desires to balance work and family.

This is an important qualification, Light, because it means that sex/genetic differences may very well account for all sorts of observable differences in behaviour, and yes, performance or outcome, regardless of whether male and female brains have "equal cognitive capacities for math and science careers".

Are you following me so far?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Could someone track down the long hyperlink on this thread and delete it or shorten it so this thread will be readable?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

The long link is the one Tal made that was quoted on the very first post on this page.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

Tal Bachman wrote:
1.) Re: your "hack" comment - this is quite the giveaway from you. Thanks.

Simon Baron-Cohen, as a human being, can be wrong; but no person who knows what they're talking about would ever call him a "hack" (that means you don't know what you're talking about). Baron-Cohen is a professor of developmental psychopathology at Cambridge University, is the director of Cambridge's Autism Research Centre, and has been at the forefront of autism and synaesthesia research for going on two decades. (It is actually the groundbreaking research he has published, in dozens of articles in the world's top academic [yes, peer-reviewed] journals, which got him the Spearman Medal and the McCandless Award). Perhaps you should take a few seconds and look up his CV. You can find it on the Cambridge website, I'm sure. (By the way, Light - do you prefer your crow minced or stewed?).


Baron-Cohen is a hack in the sense that he publishes dubiously supported views in lay-forums where he omits evidence and misleads the public. It is the same sense in which someone could say 2-time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is a hack when talking about the curative properties of Vitamin C.

3.) I have no idea who "Mixing Memory" is.


It's a famous cog sci blog maintained by a quasi-anonymous cognitive scientist. I wrote it to express a sentiment that follows at the end.

All I know is that your trust in this person's evaluations once again suggests a disconcerting lack of discrimination on your part. For example, MM, who you quote approvingly, claims that a regular columnist for the New York Times is a "rabid misogynist". Okay.......I suppose that's possible. But does that characteriztion not strike you, Light, as perhaps prima facie rather dubious? Is the NY Times a bastion of Christian fundamentalism or reactionary populism or something, that it should regularly feature a pathological hater of women as one of its most prominent columnists? Is the NY Times really a "fringe" paper, as your comments in totality necesssarily imply? Do you not find any reason to perhaps investigate this whole issue with more discretion?


Yes, Brooks is a misogynist. I know this because I've read his views on women. Brooks holds rather conservative views on a host of social issues, including what "place" women ought to have. My comments do not imply that the NY Times is a fringe newspaper. That equivocates the meaning of the word fringe. I said that theorists, of which Brooks is not (he's a journalist and social commentator), you are endorsing are fringe academics, meaning their views are disagreed with by a significant majority of scientists who share their field.
Does that mean you subscribe to Darwinism? That's funny, Light - and here I thought you considered yourself to be a devout Mormon. Didn't you know that an official First Presidency statement states forthrightly that Latter-day Saint doctrine precludes Darwinian explanation for the origins of the human family? I'd like an answer to this one.


Why don't you go to the BYU biology department and have a talk with them? In the meantime:

http://www.amazon.com/Mormonism-Evoluti ... 1589580931

My guess is that you've never read anything else through by Elizabeth Spelke than the essay you posted, have read very little, if anything, of the feminist writers you denied make the sort of claims they do (what else could have caused you to deny this but sheer ignorance?), have never read anything by Simon Baron-Cohen, have never read through a Pinker book (not saying they're all that, but still they ought to be read simply because EP [rather worryingly, in my view] is so influential these days), have zero clue about what Coggins alluded to in his reply here, and in general, are operating from a position of some ignorance here. Am I wrong?

Yes.

Now, about the Spelke article. Just a few comments on things you seem entirely to have ignored.

Spelke states clearly that her article focuses on one very particular question: "Do men and women have equal cognitive capacities for math and science careers?" That is, as she herself states

"I...do not discuss sex differences in human preferences, motives, attitudes, temperament, or decisions. A complete account of men's and women's differing career paths must consider many kinds of sex differences, including differences in men's and women's attitudes toward science and desires to balance work and family.

This is an important qualification, Light, because it means that sex/genetic differences may very well account for all sorts of observable differences in behaviour, and yes, performance or outcome, regardless of whether male and female brains have "equal cognitive capacities for math and science careers".

Are you following me so far?[/color][/size]


If you actually read the article, it goes into detail explaining what is wrong with Baron-Cohen, hence why I offered the link. The article in question addresses the narrow question of whether math and science aptitude is based in developmental differences in cognitive mechanisms. The answer, contra specific people you listed, is no. The conclusion is that differences in current physics and math disparities in university faculties is not explainable in these terms, that other similar differences that once existed were explainable in terms of social factors, and that one must look to other factors to explain this phenomena as well. It was posted as a specific refutation of a specific researcher's argument you listed. Yes, it is always possible that this difference is being mediated by biology, such as biologically predetermined preferences for differences in teaching methods in different disciplines, the evidence argues against the arguments you endorse, further there is no evidence to support your positive assertion, and we know similar social patterns changed in direct response to cultural changes which strongly points to their explanatory efficacy.
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Baron-Cohen is a hack in the sense that he publishes dubiously supported views in lay-forums where he omits evidence and misleads the public. It is the same sense in which someone could say 2-time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling is a hack when talking about the curative properties of Vitamin C.


1.) The view that genetics is an important factor in human behaviour, and sex-specific behaviour, attitudes, etc., is not "dubiously supported" at all;

2.) Only a fool would regard publishing in "lay forums" as indicative of being a "hack"; and by that reasoning, virtually all the greatest scholars/researchers of the last century would be considered hacks by you, including Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Noam Chomsky (as a linguist)...all of them. Even Elizabeth Spelke publishes in lay forums. So what?

3.) If by "omitting evidence", you mean that in a 1000 word piece for Time, The New Republic, or the NY Times, not every single scrap of evidence ever turned up by anyone on a particular topic is mentioned, then everyone necessarily "omits evidence". Again, Spelke would be as guilty as anyone. I even pointed out to you Spelke's admission, in the article you yourself posted, that she was NOT going to even touch on a mountain of evidence directly relevant to the question of to what extent there is a genetic basis in behavioural, attitudinal, emotional, etc., differences between human males and females. Instead, she focuses on ONE very narrow sliver of the issue. So, is Spelke a "hack"? NO, SHE IS NOT. And neither is Baron-Cohen. A focus made necessary by the constraints of the medium, or even of thought itself, is different than what you imply is some irresponsible, if not intentional, "misleading" of the public through sly omission of evidence. Very silly.

I have no idea who "Mixing Memory" is. It's a famous cog sci blog maintained by a quasi-anonymous cognitive scientist. I wrote it to express a sentiment that follows at the end.


4.) Well, that's just brilliant - Mixing Memory announces that the NY Times features a pathological hater of women as a regular, prominent columnist, and that settles the matter for you.

I'd be shocked if you could produce even one quote from David Brooks that any reasonable person would construe as misogynistic. Can you? Go ahead, Light - show us the David Brooks quote, or two or three, that betrays his seething hatred of females. And if you can't, since they don't exist, for what reason are you crediting the reckless and unfair MM? How does the lack of discrimination work with you, Light? Is it whoever gets to you first? Is it whoever has the coolest blog name? What is it?

Certainly, a "rabid misogynist" would offer plenty of evidences of his "rabid misogynyt". So let's see a few, Light. And if you can't produce them, may I suggest that you regard your MM, and ALL his/her judgments, with more discrimination? After all, is it really difficult to imagine that someone who sees "rabid misogyny" (awfully strong words) where there isn't any, might also see what isn't really there in the case of the Baron-Cohens of the world?

Lastly, nice distraction attempt on my evolution question. Why don't you just answer it instead? Are you, or are you not, aware that an official First Presidency statement enunciating official church doctrine precludes a Darwinian explanation for the origin of the human family on earth? This is easy. You just say, "yes, I am", or "no, I am not". What's the answer?

Have to run, will get back to this later.
_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

1.) The view that genetics is an important factor in human behaviour, and sex-specific behaviour, attitudes, etc., is not "dubiously supported" at all


What is dubiously supported is that the differences in many gender roles, such sex differences in mathematics achievement or preferences, is driven by biological differences in sexes. This, unfortunately, is a strawman that demonstrates you don't even understand what you are criticizing.
2.) Only a fool would regard publishing in "lay forums" as indicative of being a "hack"; and by that reasoning, virtually all the greatest scholars/researchers of the last century would be considered hacks by you, including Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Noam Chomsky (as a linguist)...all of them. Even Elizabeth Spelke publishes in lay forums. So what?


The problem isn't with publishing in lay forums on its own. I said as much. Perhaps I need to quote Chris again:
"You have to blame Baron-Cohen, and people like Steven Pinker, who make these claims public before they've undergone rigorous scientific scrutiny. Once they're out there, it's damn near impossible to get rid of them, no matter how many scientists come forward to say that it turns out the evidence tells a different story. Responsible scientists don't build large theories on one or two unreplicated studies, and then spend a great deal of time talking about them to the media, or writing books for laypeople about them, all the while ignoring a wealth of conflicting evidence."

The same problem exists for things like Dawkins, et al. use of the "meme" concept. Running to the pop-media to make arguments you have failed to adequately support in more rigorous academic contexts is the problem. It is a problem Spelke doesn't have.

3.) If by "omitting evidence", you mean that in a 1000 word piece for Time, The New Republic, or the NY Times, not every single scrap of evidence ever turned up by anyone on a particular topic is mentioned, then everyone necessarily "omits evidence". Again, Spelke would be as guilty as anyone. I even pointed out to you Spelke's admission, in the article you yourself posted, that she was NOT going to even touch on a mountain of evidence directly relevant to the question of to what extent there is a genetic basis in behavioural, attitudinal, emotional, etc., differences between human males and females. Instead, she focuses on ONE very narrow sliver of the issue. So, is Spelke a "hack"? NO, SHE IS NOT. And neither is Baron-Cohen. A focus made necessary by the constraints of the medium, or even of thought itself, is different than what you imply is some irresponsible, if not intentional, "misleading" of the public through sly omission of evidence. Very silly.


By omitting evidence, I mean doing things like failing to acknowledge that your unreplicated and, thus far, unreplicable study is contradicted by many, many similar studies on the subject. Leaving out little things like that kind of matters when you are a responsible scholar. This is one of the things Spelke pointed out through use of references which you completely glossed over.

"Baron-Cohen (2003) proposed that males are predisposed to learn about objects and their mechanical interactions,
whereas females are predisposed to learn about people and their emotional interactions. He cited as evidence an experiment conducted on newborn infants (Connellan, Baron-Cohen, Wheelwright, Batki, & Ahluwalia, 2000). Infants
viewed, side by side, an active and expressive person and a similarly sized inanimate object. Male infants looked
longer at the object, whereas female infants looked longer at the person. Baron-Cohen suggested that male infants’
focus on objects leads them to become systemizers who engage both with the mechanical world and with abstract
systems like mathematics. Claims that by nature men orient to objects and women orient to people are not new (see Maccoby & Jacklin, 1974, for a review of older claims and Browne, 2002, and Pinker, 2002, for recent statements), but Connellan et al.’s (2000) experiment seems to have given them compelling support. The experiment is unusual, however,
in three respects. First, it stands alone. It is customary, in infant research, to replicate key findings and assemble
multiple experiments in support of any claim. No replication of Connellan et al.’s experiment has been published,
however, and no unpublished replications are mentioned in Baron-Cohen’s (2003, 2005a) discussions of their finding.
The lack of replication is particularly curious, because a large, older literature suggests that male and female infants are equally interested in people and objects (Maccoby & Jacklin, 1974). Numerous experiments in the 1960s compared infants’ visual attention to faces versus inanimate patterns. One study, for example, assessed infants’ visual attention to a live person in a free play setting at one and three months and assessed their visual attention to pictures of faces and inanimate displays in a controlled setting at the latter age (Moss & Robson, 1968). Male and female infants looked equally at the live person at both ages. At three months, all infants looked longer at the face than the inanimate display, and this preference was greater for the male infants. These findings, like others from more recent research (see Rochat, 2001, for a review), provide no evidence that male infants are more focused on objects and female infants are more focused on people from birth onward.

Second, Connellan et al.’s (2000) experiment does not attempt to determine the basis for infants’ preferences between the person and object. Assertions that infants prefer one category of entities to another must address a range of critical questions. Does the preference depend on the categorical distinction between the entities or on other differences between the two displays, such as their rate of motion or distribution of color or contrast? Does the preference generalize to other members of the two categories, or is it specific to the tested pair? (For recent discussions of these issues, see Cohen, 2003; Mandler, 2004; Quinn & Oates, 2004; Shutts & Spelke, 2004.) Connellan et al. did not consider these questions.

Third, Connellan et al. (2000) did not discuss critical controls against experimenter bias. Because newborn infants cannot hold their heads erect, their visual preferences are influenced by the way in which they are positioned and supported; because one of the two stimuli was a live, expressive person, preferences also could be influenced by that person’s behavior. Baron-Cohen (2005a) has indicated that the experimenters attempted to minimize bias, but a replication with more stringent controls would be desirable..."

4.) Well, that's just brilliant - Mixing Memory announces that the NY Times features a pathological hater of women as a regular, prominent columnist, and that settles the matter for you.


What settles the matter for me is having read Brooks.

I'd be shocked if you could produce even one quote from David Brooks that any reasonable person would construe as misogynistic. Can you? Go ahead, Light - show us the David Brooks quote, or two or three, that betrays his seething hatred of females. And if you can't, since they don't exist, for what reason are you crediting the reckless and unfair MM? How does the lack of discrimination work with you, Light? Is it whoever gets to you first? Is it whoever has the coolest blog name? What is it?


Yeah, a bigot could never, ever write for the New York Times. Want some examples? Ah the beauty of the internet. Simply do a search on Brooks and the term "misogyny" and its cognates and you'll get many examples of his demeaning views towards women.

Lastly, nice distraction attempt on my evolution question. Why don't you just answer it instead? Are you, or are you not, aware that an official First Presidency statement enunciating official church doctrine precludes a Darwinian explanation for the origin of the human family on earth? This is easy. You just say, "yes, I am", or "no, I am not". What's the answer?


This is a loaded question like "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" I linked a book that explains why it builds a false assumption into it. It is, more or less, an expanded version of the BYU evolution packet. I've done what I can.
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Coggins7 wrote:Could someone track down the long hyperlink on this thread and delete it or shorten it so this thread will be readable?

And Coggins7 said "Let the link be shortened so that the thread might be readable"... and it was done.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Tal Bachman
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Post by _Tal Bachman »

Hi Inifinite Void in the Darkness

Let's get the simple things out of the way first:

1.) I googled "David Brooks misogyny" and, in the few minutes I spent looking, didn't find anything that seemed even remotely credible or sensible. Would you be so kind as to post here at least one excerpt from Brooks's writing, but preferably two or three, which to you demonstrates his "rabid misogyny"? If you do, I will be happy to concede your point. Let's see your incriminating quote(s).

2.) I don't think my evolution question was analogous to the wife-beating question, but I'll recast it anyway:

Would you, or would you not, disavow a Darwinian explanation for the origin of human life on earth, if an official First Presidency statement enunciating LDS doctrine on just that question rejected that explanation?

Thank you for your responses to these two simple questions.
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