The Noose again begins to tighten on the critics...

[_Sethbag]

I don't mean to derail Who Knows' invitation for Coggins to come back and self-destruct on this matter, but I think Coggins' main (only?) point is that there hasn't been just one migration from Asia, but at least two.

Ok.

So that means the Book of Mormon is true how?

Note the articles mentioned migrations from Asia, not migrations from Palestine, or even migrations from the Middle East. Also note that there are two times mentioned, one that is very, very much older than the Book of Mormon timeframes, and one that is simply very much older than the Book of Mormon timeframe.

Coggins, if anything, this tightens the noose around the necks of the Book of Mormon apologists, not the critics. Nothing in what you've said helps defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon. It all tells a different story, one in which the Book of Mormon events simply aren't there.

[_The Dude]

Who gives a flying turd about Tom Murphy?

The last 15 years of genetic surveys have established that the vast majority of Native American mtDNA and Y chromosomal haplotypes can be traced to one to three very ancient migrations out of Asia. By vast majority, I mean 90-95% (higher for the mtDNA). There are some outliers, there will always be some outliers, but no matter how you cut it, the Bering Straight theory (or something like it, meaning very ancient + out of asia) is more true today than it was before DNA, and by default the traditional Book of Mormon is more false.

...there significant evidence that a rather large number of peoples to various degrees have inhabited the Americas alongside the Amerindians since very ancient times...

Garbage. What is an ancient person in America who lives alongside Amerindians but is not himself an Amerindian? There isn't even a name for this critter (besides in BoM-land), let alone evidence for them.

Mark it zero.

[_Who Knows]

Cogg apparently subscribes to the "The critics believe all the scientific discovery has been done - therefore, anything new ANYTHING AT ALL, shows the critics are wrong and the Mormons are right" theory.

[_Coggins7]

Who gives a flying turd about Tom Murphy?

The last 15 years of genetic surveys have established that the vast majority of Native American mtDNA and Y chromosomal haplotypes can be traced to one to three very ancient migrations out of Asia. By vast majority, I mean 90-95% (higher for the mtDNA). There are some outliers, there will always be some outliers, but no matter how you cut it, the Bering Straight theory (or something like it, meaning very ancient + out of asia) is more true today than it was before DNA, and by default the traditional Book of Mormon is more false.

...there significant evidence that a rather large number of peoples to various degrees have inhabited the Americas alongside the Amerindians since very ancient times...

Garbage. What is an ancient person in America who lives alongside Amerindians but is not himself an Amerindian? There isn't even a name for this critter (besides in BoM-land), let alone evidence for them.

Mark it zero.

Go ahead Dude, keep up the special pleading. This is fun. If you knew what you were talking about, we could, in all probability, have a discussion about it. However, given conditions as they are, there is, indeed, no point.

You are clearly not up to speed on the various well attested evidence regarding the ancient inhabitants of the Americas, which suggests quite strongly that there were not by any means the only people here. You have Celts, Vikings, Africans, Chinese, other Caucasians of various types, Jews (we know they were here, as they left a stone carving mentioning the fact) and any other number of possible groups.

You of course, must stick to the hoary old psychic evolutionist school in Archeology and Anthropology as opposed to cultural diffusionism (which is actually the only plausible way to explain the world wide distribution of so many core religious and cultural motifs, patterns, and symbology) because this fits your general materialist, reductionist template regarding the world

Its typical of those of your type to claim "all is known, the evidence is in, all the facts are before us, the case is closed" when facing claims that threaten your world view. You exaggerate what science both knows and is capable of knowing when facing what you don't know in an attempt to stave off the weakening of your world view and all you have invested within it. You, like so many others who hold similar philosophies and feel threatened by similar religious truth claims, make dogma out of uncertain and tentative evidence and decoct facts from speculation and guesswork.

The entire edifice of AGW has been constructed and maintained upon similar lines. So are many anti-BofM claims. Probably 90% of all claims against the Book of Mormon are of the form "there is no evidence that... In other words, absence of present evidence is evidence of future absence. Once set as dogma in closed minds, nothing can ever move forward again and little intellectual honesty can be brought to debate. Claiming that modern DNA research has proved the Book of Mormon unhistorical is a case in point. In hasn't done that yet because it can't. No one has demonstrated anything of the kind as you seem to think. What the Book of Mormon says about the small party that arrived here 2,600 years ago, and what modern genetics is capable of saying about them makes that impossible, at least a present. You are blowing smoke out every orifice here Dude. You also appear dismally ignorant of the recent LDS scholarship and criticism on the matter. Homework time Dude, before you pontificate any further.

It serves its purpose, I understand.

[_The Dude]

Go ahead Dude, keep up the special pleading.

Is that how you feel when I identify your circular arguments?

This is fun.

Yes, many of us think it is fun to watch you make a fool of yourself. I guess it helps if you enjoy it too.

If you knew what you were talking about, we could, in all probability, have a discussion about it. However, given conditions as they are, there is, indeed, no point.

Yes, my PhD doesn't matter. It just shows I am one of satan's minions, wise in my own eyes and in the eyes of the world. Blah, blah, blah.

Waste of time as usual. Please go away.

[_harmony]

Go ahead Dude, keep up the special pleading. This is fun. If you knew what you were talking about, we could, in all probability, have a discussion about it. However, given conditions as they are, there is, indeed, no point.

Ummm... Loran? Quit while you're still breathing, because you haven't been ahead for a very long time. You're embarrassing the Mormons here. Really. Sit down and chill. You're over your head and watching you disintegrate is enough to gag a maggot.

The Dude is just about the only poster here who does understand all the ramifications of DNA. If I recall correctly, he's the only one who has a PhD in genetics or whatever. He could probably write whatever book you're reading.

[_beastie]

Stop being a spoil-sport, harmony! Seeing Cog proclaim that he's exposing critics as laughing stocks is the best entertainment I've had all week.

[_silentkid]

You also appear dismally ignorant of the recent LDS scholarship and criticism on the matter.

Paging Dr. Mike Whiting...Dr. Mike Whiting.

[_harmony]

Stop being a spoil-sport, harmony! Seeing Cog proclaim that he's exposing critics as laughing stocks is the best entertainment I've had all week.

Oi, oi, oi! I was simply trying to be merciful, just as I would be to any loonie-tunes caught in their own bear trap. Poor Loran doesn't even know enough to get the deer-in-the-headlights look. It's either shut him up or put him out of his misery.

If this qualifies as the best entertainment you've had all week, I hope your 4th is better than the rest of your week's been. We're looking forward to 100 degrees, the parade through town then a backyard BBQ, and then we'll put the boat in the water to watch the fireworks over the river. Good times.

[_Blixa]

Jews (we know they were here, as they left a stone carving mentioning the fact)

In Search Of? I hope this isn't Bat Creek, again...