What is the Curse of Cain?

[_Mercury]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a racist is one who makes judgments of others based on their race?

No, it wouldn't be more accurate, but its accurate. I think it also a primary component of a racialist mind to be continually and consistently aware of, sensitive to, and exercised by, race and racial issues.

I virtually never think about it unless I'm in a discussion with a Liberal. They are the only ones who really ever bring it up.

I think its been well established how much of a bigot you are, boy.

A little advice: Just keep quiet before you add even more confirmation.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Another variation of this is Truth Dancer's view that Cain and Abel represented the Agrarian and Hunter Gatherer parts of our past.

Not to get off topic---but the Agrarian/Pasturalist parallel to be found in the Cain/Abel story is one that's rather important. For further reading on this issue in the Bible see the invasion of the Hebrews (the pasturalists) into Canaan (the agrarians). There are many other parallels in the Ancient World.

[_huckelberry]

Gazalem, It was nice of you to post that material about Noahs sons. It seems like a good reference for the discussion,but you did not make any comments. What do you see it adding up to?

I see several things. First the map is a good summary. It shows the places connected to Ham to be spread all over. What in the world do they have in common which would help us to identify them? I could make a simple observation that it does not include west Africa where American slaves were from. I could assume from that simple observation that African Americans have not had any connection with Ham. That would be the most literal reading of the matter.

The article in a way does make an effort to maintain some connection to the old idea of a Ham African connection without being specific. It mentions there may be some connection to dark in the name. The article seems a bit uncertain. But lets assume that connection is correct. What sort of dark is applicable to all those other people connected with Ham. Now it is true that Cush or Etheopia has dark skinned people. I might observe they are different that west Africans (body form facial form) but do have somethings in common. Same continent and dark skin. But how does this connect to Crete, Ninevah, Babylon, Philistines, Tyre and Kittem? These are not African peoples. The article proposes that they may be politically connected to Egypt. That is at least a possible theory of what the connection is. A number of the groups connected with Ham have some political connection with Egypt. But Ninevah? Babylon? these are hardly satellites of Egypt. They are major alternative powers to egypt.

On could just say that the connection is hidden. I think a second look at the map is in order. Is that Ham is sort of in the middle? Is it that in terms of color it does not look quite as extensive?? It makes a difference to remember who those groups are. Ninevah and Babylon may on the map be small spots. In terms of ancient polotics these are with Egypt the major money and power centers of the world. The other examples are all connected to the main maritime powers, rich from trade. What characteristic Ham has in all this is that Ham has all the power and money and political control in the world. It does not seem to matter what skin type it has it is power that Ham has in common.

But why power be the negative ? isn't the Christian church attatched to power centers due to divine favor? don't we expect divine favor to be bestowed upon powerful Isreal? Some picture in the Bible leave on thinking that Isreal was the center of the world or something. It is hard to remember that to everybody who mattered in the world Isreal was a dusty waystation on the road from someplace to someplace else. In other words nowhere. Now Isreal made some money being on that road but they were still left small and weak treatened by powerful empires. there comments about Ham have a underdogs thumbing the nose at goliath quality.

It is hard to see American use of the Ham catagory the same way. What in fact could be more ironic than to have those inpower saddleling those with the least power with that negative cartoon? Well things switch about a lot in time. Europeans were once powerless outsiders and now have power. Babylon was once great and now is a pain in the rear. Does that explain it?

So my question, did we become Ham? Well I could try to make some connections between Europeans and those sea people that were Tyre Philistines Crete and Kittem. It is uncertain stuff that connection or lack of connection. People have changed and mixed together. Especally true speaking of seafarign people. Who all are their descendents now?

Well going back to literal truth, It is been many times long enough that all of us are related to Ham. We are all related to the brothers as well. Perhaps that is part of the reason we all have a bit of the underdog, the good and the presumptiosly overbaring gait of the rich.

So as we are rich we should remember our connection to Ham.

Just something to think about as you are munching on your lunchtime ham sandwich.

[_Mercury]

You're problem here is that your have not a shred of documentary evidence to support this claim. Its an assumption, and nothing more. Joseph, in fact, called and ordained several black males to the high Priesthood when he was alive.

(hint: you don't understand the body of church teaching on the subject)

Yep, I think I have a picture of them somewhere...

[_moksha]

Blacks in the LDS Church
Faithful witness
New film and revived group help many feel at home in their church
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 07/06/2007 09:14:08 PM MDT

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6316597

[_Gazelam]

Thank you for posting that article. The BYU channel has shown a special that talks about the churchs long struggle in Africa, where a minister there read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it and learned its truthfulness by way of the Holy Ghost. It was decades before he could officially become a branch of the church, although he was in communication with the various prophets of the church over the years, being supplied with literature and spiritual support. They were well aware of his efforts, but could do nothing in regards to extending the priesthood and making him a fully authorized leader in the church.

In regards to the time the Lord chose to finally extend the priesthood to the Negro race, some perspective might be in order. The Priesthood was not held by anyone for nearly 1400 years! The American continent had been established so that the Church of Christ could again be established on the Earth. In the years previous there was no place on Earth where religious freedom would allow it. Joseph himself was nearly killed in all his efforts to establish it, eventually they succeeded in taking his life. Despite his being killed, the gospel and its attendant priesthood were restored to both the decendents of Israel and the Gentiles (Who had received it for the first time in the first century)

The Negro race had been brought to America, where the gospel of Christ was taught in its purity, and practiced freely. Despite this general freedom, the Negros were still treated as second class citizens. It was an additional 150 years or so before they as a race were treated as equals. In my opinion this may very likely have had somethign to do with the priesthood being given to them.

The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball had asked the Lord regarding the priesthood ban and its lifting. D&C 50:30 states that the Spirit will inspire those who are worthy to ask specific questions of the Lord, persuading them to offer up a prayer, then after the effort of prayer is put forth a revelation will be given. I have seen this happen myself.

Brother Kimball was told that before the subject could be aproached further, he had to repent of the prejudices he had himself concerning the matter. In later councils among the brethren he told the members that they must do the same. After repenting, they then offered prayer and received revelation from God to allow a full dispertion of the priesthood.

Gaz

[_Jersey Girl]

You're problem here is that your have not a shred of documentary evidence to support this claim. Its an assumption, and nothing more. Joseph, in fact, called and ordained several black males to the high Priesthood when he was alive.

(hint: you don't understand the body of church teaching on the subject)

Yep, I think I have a picture of them somewhere...

Excuse me, Mercury. Do you know anything at all about the show depicted in the poster you used? Anything? The talent and experience of the actors? How the show was produced? It's innovations? The history of the show?

You might just want to take time to educate yourself about those issues.



“I didn’t feel it (“The Amos ‘n’ Andy” television show) harmed the Negro at all,” said Alvin Childress (Amos), during an interview in the mid-1950’s. “Actually the series had many episodes that showed the Negro with professions and businesses, like attorneys, store owners, and so on, which they never had on television or in movies before.”

[_Gazelam]

Thanks for your great post. Good reading there. Lots of good points.

It seems like a good reference for the discussion,but you did not make any comments. What do you see it adding up to?

To be perfectly honest, I only understand it in principle, not in detail. I only offer it as an example of a generaly understood belief.

The other examples are all connected to the main maritime powers, rich from trade. What characteristic Ham has in all this is that Ham has all the power and money and political control in the world. It does not seem to matter what skin type it has it is power that Ham has in common.

In regards to your comments on the map, I don't have any understanding to how the brotherhoods and tribes fractured and spread themselves about. I saw the map for the first time right before I posted it here.

In regards to Hams decendents being in control of the wealth generating areas, that's an interesting observation. There are some texts that talk about how Seth and his people lived apart from Cains family. Cains family lived in a valley, and had a city. They had developed a money system, brass instruments to play music, and a system of trade, building wealth and richs. The name of Cain has a root meaning in blacksmithing.

They sent emissarys to the people of Seth, inviting them to the city, wishing to establish trade. The apocypha even mention Satan himself telling them how to dress, to make themselves desireable to Seths people, dressing in their best and most flashy clothes.Eventually the decadence of the city, with its strange and exotic vices, including orgies, led to the fall of Seths people. This was not stemmed even by the efforts of Enoch, and eventually led to Noahs flood.

There are also comparisons to be made with Abraham and Sodom and Gommorah. The two cities of the plain were famous for their wealth and ecadence, they being on a main trade route. They were known for fleeceing passerbys and robbing them. They were also known for their famous iron Bed, on which they would mechanically sodomize those they accused of crimes, whether they were true crimes or not.
In contrast Abraham was known for his kindness to strangers, helping all those he came in contact with. (I was reminded of this also when I was reading about how the Cedar city people were treating the Thatcher party when they came into town seeking aid)

Are we Ham?

I am not sure how Hams blood was fully distributed. Obviously only a certain portion of his decendents carried the curse, while others escaped it. I think we are all going to be judged on how we treat others, including to a large measure how we forgive those who mistreat and despise us.

The curse was placed in order to ensure that those who love God and seek to keep his covenants would not mix their blood with those who set aside the teachings of God.

If we are seeking after the things of God, and trying to live a righteous life in the eyes of God, we have no part in the curse of Cain.

[_huckelberry]

Hi Gazelem. I see we have some shared understandings. Are we Ham? my summary would be that we all have the oportunity to be, lets not. Lets not be rich man Dives.

[_Coggins7]

You might just want to take time to educate yourself about those issues.

But that would be asking Mercury to accept the very concept of education.