Sorry DCP, wish you could pop in without insults flying.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Alter Idem wrote:[What happens to a scholarly thread if one of the posters here decides to attack? It would go right down the tube.
Actually, a mod would split the "attack" part off into a separate thread to send down the tube. I wondered about this at first too, but then saw that this was the method of handling that kind of thing.
Thanks for pointing this out, Blixa! That's exactly what we try to do. :)
Seven wrote:Mercs comment to DCP was wrong and I hope even the most outsopken critics of Mormonism can refrain from stooping to the level of the Juliann's RayA's, Pahoran's, Selek's etc. of internet Mormonism. I believe the large majority here are respectful to differing views, unlike MAD. That is why I choose to post here on Shades board and have no desire to ever post again on MAD.
I BEG your bloody pardon? How "dare" you? Did I ever utter ONE offensive comment in this CESSPOOL!!!?
SHOW ME WHERE!!!! (I hope your fingers rot searching.)
Seven wrote:If DCP doesn't ever come back, that is his loss.
It will truly be his loss. No one ever regretted a few less piles, and less visits to the pharmacy!
Now go find where I ever uttered ONE word of slander against the participants of MDB!!!!
Ray....You and Beastie have feuded more than once on this board, and Shades and I have both had to edit the "F" word from your posts on several occasions, and warn you about not using it in the Terrestrial Forum. Everyone has a "heated moment" now and again, so I don't know that I would "lump" you in with Juliann or Pahoran, but, then again, I've been on MDB a little longer than Seven has, and have had a few more conversations with you.
As far as the OP is concerned----
I have been away from the boards for the past couple of weeks, except for some mild spot-checking, due to family being in town.
If DCP was attacked, I am truly sorry that happened. We do try to keep attacks to the Telestial Forum. Personally, I hope that DCP does continue to post here. I think he would probably be more comfortable posting in the Celestial Forum. It is more heavily moderated, and more of the scholarly threads do tend to occur in this section. I don't have anything against DCP, but I have read enough of his posts to gather that he is certainly not a "wimp", and can take care of himself when attacked without provocation. DCP has proven on MAD that he can certainly "dish" as well as "take".
One of the main differences I see between this board and MAD is that MDB does not ban individuals for having contrary opinions to the creator of the board.
The silliness probably keeps people away as well. I think it's a shame that more people don't post here. I'm pretty offended by some people that spew venom on these boards. If there were more posters from all sides that would probably stem the tide of the hateful rhetoric. More conversations would occur hopefully. Not just the one liners.
I feel more comfortable here because I feel that I can defend myself if I need to. I didn't feel that way at MAD at all. I was attacked on that board. I haven't been back there in 2 weeks just because I can't handle the mod team.
I'm disappointed when I start threads and I get pretty much only one answer. At MAD I got one side. Here I get the other. I wish there was somewhere I could get both. :(
I've participated on several different boards that allowed both viewpoints to be expressed - first ARM, 2think (although I did not participate there regularly), folks of the fringe, ZLMB, and FAIR/MAD. Each of these boards, to varying degrees, has been plagued by the same problems.
I think it has to do with the "one truism" idea, and I suspect (and know from some books written by other exbelievers of some "one truism") that any religion that teaches it is the one true way, the one full embodiment, or whatever, is going to have this friction between believer and exbeliever. There is just not the flexibility built into the system that allows people to naturally accept that those who reject their belief system may not necessarily be flawed, or sinful, or proud, or any personality trait which assigns all the problems to the exbeliever. (all the significant problems, that is) So when someone exits the Mormon faith, the believers left behind get the clear message: "you are wrong". At the same time, believers are taught that the exbeliever is (fill in negative pejorative). The combination of the feeling of being judged and rejected and the idea that only flawed individuals would reject "the truth" is potent, and pretty effectively pre-poisons any well. At the same time, exbelievers exit with a lot of baggage that accompanies rejecting an entire way of living, not just an abtract idea, as well as knowing that the believers view them as flawed. Often exbelievers have huge chips on their shoulders right from the beginning, as well as struggling with real life issues that loss of belief incurs (marital and social problems). And the process of separating can entail violent rejection of former beliefs to allow the emotional separation to take place.
It's just such a potent mix that I really have concluded that, with some exceptions, it just isn't possible to have a significant amount of meaningful discussions with both sides participating. It's like asking two divorced people who went through an extremely ugly divorce and openly, repeatedly, attacked one another, to "get along" and discuss how to raise the kids without problems. It's nice in theory, unlikely in practice.
Fringie Mormons (the ones who are not emotionally invested in any one truism of the church and view it more as one of many legitimate belief systems) and exmormons who focus more on the academic questions have the best shot at real discussion. And this does take place sometimes. Just not frequently enough to set the tone of boards.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Here is the problem as I see it. First, I'd like to say that I regret responding to the insult posts but the truth is that I don't. I don't have the patience or self control to sit by and watch people repeatedly throw crap on our TBM posters. What drives a board like this is difference of opinion/viewpoints/beliefs. Without our TBM posters, this place is just an RFM annex. I disagree with the bulk of what our TBM posters believe and think about doctrine and that is exactly why I make attempts to engage them. Why should I engage someone who agrees with me?
There are some folks around here who apparently think that making the TBM posters into their personal whipping posts makes them appear superior when in reality, all it does is put another nail in the coffin of this board.
At what point to do people get a clue?
Threads like this one and the discussion that is taking place on it, are exactly the kind of thing that molds a community. So long as people are given some freedom and new posters made welcome, the molding won't kill the community as it has others.
One thing that has been helpful to me is this and I hope that MAD lurkers will read this. I don't know when it was that I saw harmony tell another poster to get on topic or get off the thread, and Shades backed her up as moderator.
I've made 2 threads here where in my OP I stated what I did and didn't want to see happen with them, and Shades backed me up on that by relocating some of the posts. So folks, if you would like to have a somewhat serious thread here in the Terrestrial without the scholarly pressure of the Celestial Forum, you can lay out your "terms", if you will, in your OP and so long as this doesn't place an ongoing burden to mods, you will get what you asked for.
Just try it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
The reason we are not going to see some of the MAD TBMs stay here is that they are unable to tell the difference between a personal attack and a criticism of the Mormon church. I have appreciated "The Nehor" and "Gazelam" and some other TBMs here that do not take it personal if you discuss the various POVs on the character of Joseph Smith or the negative aspects of Mormon history and doctrine.
As for the true personal attacks and insults, I would think former Mormons or those who question the church in general should be above the behavior exhibited by many of the apologists on MAD. We know all too painfully what it's like to be the target of bigotry and personal attacks from that crowd and should rise above it. Let their true colors show. When I first went to FAIR, one of the most surprising things to me was the hatred and personal attacks leveled at any exmo or poster who dared question Joseph Smith's character or the history of the church. Instead of focusing on facts and differing points of views, some of the main apologists there would just attack the person asking the questions to avoid honest discussion.
A newbie who is lurking and having some doubts or questions will find trust and a sense of belonging with the posters who react with understanding and respect to others. That was my experience at least, and helped me to form an almost immediate connection with those respectful and calm posters who could discuss the troubling issues honestly.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
Ray A wrote:I BEG your bloody pardon? How "dare" you? Did I ever utter ONE offensive comment in this CESSPOOL!!!?
SHOW ME WHERE!!!!
Now go find where I ever uttered ONE word of slander against the participants of MDB!!!!
Not bloody hard. Here's a quite truncated list drawn only from one thread:
"Do you have anything better to do than feed your inferiority complex by writing a blog to feed your deflated ego? And imagine, bashing a church to build your ego and get a few laughs. You must really be the bottom of the barrel.
Another gutless wonder who won't reveal his real name.
You are a pretend person
You remind me of the girl I saw being attacked a few weeks ago in the streets. I saw two thugs kick into this girl mercilessly while she was on the ground screaming. What she said I have no idea, but no human being deserves that! Undoubtedly she only said offending words to the parties, and that is what I heard after. Fortunately two police officers saved her life. But my stomach churned with disgust and absolute shock. This is the sort of verbal mugging I see going on here.
You know what they say, beastie? If you lie down with dogs, you will get up with fleas. You are so naïve!!!
Beastie, this is the sh*t pile you have chosen to lie down in.
WOW! You mean you can stand your children being called "retards" and say nothing, but want me to go back to "Orson"? You are really f***ing sick.
...as long as you support these traitors, and bile-driven sychophants wallowing in their own dung - you are one of them.
YOU, b***, will be one of the reasons I never trust exmos again."
You obviously didn't see the ironic intent of my post. I knew you'd go digging this stuff up. Did you have fun?