A Different MMM Thread

[_The Nehor]

There's been a lot of discussion on MMM lately and my thoughts haven't melded neatly into any of the other threads so I thought I'd start my own.

First off what I'm saying is not an attempt to justify what happened. There were villains involved.

My first observation is to worry about how quickly people throw up condemning statements about how they could never ever do that and how murdering someone is beyond their comprehension, especially children. The stereotypical LDS defense is to look at the circumstances, examine what happened, they had reasons, etc. All this may be true but it seems based on a perceived evolution in moral thought, that it couldn't or wouldn't happen now. I think this perception is a mistake.

C.S. Lewis talked about morality making real advances and said that most of them are increases in knowledge not in morality. He took the example of executing witches. Was it a moral advance to stop burning them? Not really, we just stopped believing them. If we really, honestly believed that there were people calling on demonic powers that had the ability and the intent to use them to control, torment, and kill others I think we would still kill off those we believed had those powers.

The LDS involved in MMM had a mindset foreign to most of the Western World now. We might call it a persecution complex but there were people really after them. Many of those people either went through or lived around people that did witness the mobbings in Missouri and the persecution in Illinois where women were raped and people tormented and/or killed. Some LDS children were murdered as well. The Army had come again and were threatening to take away from them again.

Very few in the Western World know the kind of fear and anger that kicks in in those circumstances. We're not under threat. There's no fear that the Indians are going to come raid us, kill us, and steal our children. I've never known a mob to form to attack me. I've met people who have endured it. Pakistani Christians who fled their homeland for fear of their lives.

The most poignant memory was on my Mission in England. We had befriended a Jewish family and while not interested in our message they invited us for dinner. Wonderful family. We had a great time and the conversation. The topic turned to the difference in transportation between there and here and how cars are unnecessary in most areas there but not here. I asked how many of their family members had a car. He said he did and his father did. He turned a little graver and said that he used to be worried about his father having the car. His mother never learned to drive and his father's eyesight was failing. He and his siblings talked about it and decided that he should go talk to his father about it for his own safety. He did and his father confessed that he never drove the car anymore but he wanted to keep it around. When asked why his response was, "I don't need it now but.....you never know when we might have to get away." This confused us and he then told us his father lived in Occupied Europe during the Second World War. The man then told us in a strong tone that if he thought the days of his father were coming again he would do whatever was necessary to stop it.

I hope that most of the people who attacked that wagon train believed they were averting tragedies similar to their own past among their own people. I don't know though. Some probably did cross the line from resignation and 'doing what is necessary' to vengeance. This isn't foreign to us. One of my most realistic dreams was one wherein my little sister was abducted and raped by an organization dedicated to pedophilia. I stole a firearm in the dream and killed the person who took her.....slowly and painfully (shot out his kneecaps and left him with a stomach wound so he could bleed to death slowly). I then went on to kill as many people of that organization as I could no matter what part they played in the organization even if it was less...evil. What scares me is how much I relished doing it. The line between man and monster is so thin.

I don't think the Fancher party was part of any plot against the LDS nor do I think it was 'necessary' in any way to kill them. The question I ask myself is if I was in that situation and honestly believed that those people were a threat to me, my family, and my community would I have acted any differently? I honestly don't know. "There but for the grace of God go I"

All the attackers involved are now dead and I hope that most of them were honestly wrong in what they did and can now rest and have sought and gotten forgiveness from those they attacked. Those who acted out of malice and hatred, I assume, are paying for their crimes until the day of redemption.

The lesson I take from this event is that if events do spiral out of control in my future and the line between civilization and savagery fails that I still need to seek knowledge and truth before acting our of anger or fear. I was going to talk about my experience speaking with a mercenary who committed atrocities in the Bosnian conflict but this post is long enough. Sorry if I seemed to ramble.

[_beastie]

Come on, Nehor. We're talking about the cold-blooded killing of people who had surrendered in hopes of being helped, and then the brutal slaughter of women and very young children.

You really think that you could bash in the head of a innocent child pleading for her life?

[_The Nehor]

Come on, Nehor. We're talking about the cold-blooded killing of people who had surrendered in hopes of being helped, and then the brutal slaughter of women and very young children.

You really think that you could bash in the head of a innocent child pleading for her life?

I hope not. Could I kill someone who I thought was involved in murdering someone I cared for or was planning to? Possibly, impossible to know without experiencing it. I don't believe I know basic right from wrong on a better level than they did.

[_gramps]

The Nehor wrote:

I don't think the Fancher party was part of any plot against the LDS nor do I think it was 'necessary' in any way to kill them. The question I ask myself is if I was in that situation and honestly believed that those people were a threat to me, my family, and my community would I have acted any differently? I honestly don't know. "There but for the grace of God go I"

Thanks for your thoughts. Just one question, if I may:

How could they have honestly believed that the Fancher party was a threat to them? I know they came up with excuses after (poison springs, etc.) the fact, but that is just what they were, I believe. Where was the threat?

[_The Nehor]

How could they have honestly believed that the Fancher party was a threat to them? I know they came up with excuses after (poison springs, etc.) the fact, but that is just what they were, I believe. Where was the threat?

The war, the perceived murder of Parley P. Pratt, the stories of them riling up the Indians. They were also xenophobic, it may have been a phantom threat but a threat doesn't have to be real to conjure up aggressive action. Look at Iraq. I used to believe that Iraq was a real threat and made my voice heard to a limited degree to support the conflict. I now think I was deceived....to a large degree self-deceived.

[_gramps]

How could they have honestly believed that the Fancher party was a threat to them? I know they came up with excuses after (poison springs, etc.) the fact, but that is just what they were, I believe. Where was the threat?

The war, the perceived murder of Parley P. Pratt, the stories of them riling up the Indians. They were also xenophobic, it may have been a phantom threat but a threat doesn't have to be real to conjure up aggressive action. Look at Iraq.

At best, you could argue the "phantom threat" scenario, I guess. But, that would be the leaders of the church's fault as much as anyone's, no?

[_Seven]

I am unaware of any persecution toward the Mormons that even comes close to the slaughter of unarmed men, women, and innocent children on that horriific day at MM.

Again, this is sickening to me that anybody would try and find the context and possible reasons for murdering children and unarmed adults.

It's not OK when massacres occured in the Old Testament either. It's one thing for God to wipe out who He wants with plagues or floods and it's quite another to command a good person to massacre children and innocent people. I don't worship a God who would command me to do evil for His purpose. He would cease to be God. If He needs righteous followers turned murderers to further His plan, He can do it himself.

[_The Nehor]

At best, you could argue the "phantom threat" scenario, I guess. But, that would be the leaders of the church's fault as much as anyone's, no?

Could be, but no matter how high up the chain the situation went it could still have been mistaken intentions or fear creating phantom threats. I think Dubya honestly thought Iraq was a real threat. He might still think it was. Looking back we can see the Utah War didn't spiral out of control and there was no campaign of genocide against the Mormons or against non-LDS settlers by Mormon and Indian bands. They didn't know then.

Further we're emotionally detached from the situation. They were not. I expect much more rational accounts of the War on Terror will appear in 25 years and in 200 years may be portrayed as something along the lines of Japanese internment. It didn't feel that way to me and it didn't to the leaders back in the 40's either.

I don't have a solution though, just ramblings. I also apologize for editing my above post immediatly after posting it. I seem to hit the submit button then always see something I need to add or change.

[_guy sajer]

A sure sign that one is victim of unhealthy indoctrination is when otherwise moral, upstanding, reasonable persons strive so hard to rationalize mass murder.

[_Seven]

Come on, Nehor. We're talking about the cold-blooded killing of people who had surrendered in hopes of being helped, and then the brutal slaughter of women and very young children.

You really think that you could bash in the head of a innocent child pleading for her life?

I hope not. Could I kill someone who I thought was involved in murdering someone I cared for or was planning to? Possibly, impossible to know without experiencing it. I don't believe I know basic right from wrong on a better level than they did.

Many people are victims to horrific crimes yet they don't go murdering everybody they perceive as a threat. Self defense and savagely killing unarmed people are not comparable.

I can't believe you say that you don't know what you would have done in that situation and you hope you wouldn't bash in the head of an innocent child pleading for her life?