Why We Need Religion

[_ajax18]

I appreciate the help Roger. Let me ask you this. How has not believing the mythology as opposed to believing it, changed how you live your life based on Christian principles? I'm assuming you believed it at one time.

[_Roger Morrison]

I appreciate the help Roger. Let me ask you this. How has not believing the mythology as opposed to believing it, changed how you live your life based on Christian principles? I'm assuming you believed it at one time.

Hi Ajax, a thoughtful question. Not to be trite but, think in terms of Santa Claus... There's a time when believing the myth just seemed to be the thing-to-do... A cultural thing...group thing...

'Not-believing' is the same; except when one disbelieves as a result of careful, thoughtful consideration of the pros & cons of applying new-found 'truth' it is obvious that truth--as one accepts it--is better than fiction that has been considered 'truth'; think flat-earth.

IMSCO, "Christian principles"--by any name--need no mythology to validate them. Like 'gravity', a 'lever' etc. they WORK however they are referred to. I respectfully suggest "traditional religion"--carrot/stick type--long ago out lived what ever useful purpose it might have at one time served. ATST, i know the difficulty of 'letting-go"... But when one is ready...

Jesus, is said to have said, "...'truth' will make YOU free...(to be better, aware, confident, charitable, ETC)..." Warm regards, Roger

[_Seven]

This thread came to mind after some comments were directed at me from a TBM friend. She was telling me to see some vulgar movie since I am no longer active in church and that she would start watching these types of movies if she no longer was Mormon. Her husband said "so you think just because she doesn't go to church that her morals are suddenly gone?"
I let her know I don't have any interest in those types of movies and that none of my moral beliefs have changed since going inactive. No stronger temptations have come upon me to sin. She told me that if she ever lost her religion she would become a totally different person and do whatever she wanted. She can't believe I am not drinking alchohol and living for today because she claims that's what she would do. I think most of this is just rhetoric and some of it was also intended to imply what she wants to believe will happen to me if I don't go back to the Mormon church.

When I let go of my beliefs in the claims of Mormonism, the first thing I felt was a weight lifted. I was free to choose the right because the fruits of it were good, not because I had to get back to God and keep my eternal family. There were times in my life that I was motivated to follow the religion out of fear and "forever family." It wasn't the entire motivation-I also followed my conscience and wanted to show God I loved Him but I always had guilt and fear in the back of my mind.

When I no longer cared about living with God or the Saints in the CK, I began doing the right thing because of my conscience and love for my brothers and sisters in the world and not guilt or fear of the hereafter. I have felt more peace in some ways than I ever did with the "true" religion. I feel free to help those in need without trying to convert them to Mormonism as part of the motivation. I don't care where I end up in heaven anymore. If I have lived my life in serving others and loving them, then I have become the person I was striving to be in Mormonism. I have been given so much that I want to give back and help those who are less fortunate and it has nothing to do with the Mormon church anymore.

If ordinances are really that important to God (which makes no sense), then I guess I am on the wrong path but I no longer believe they have anything to do with becoming like Christ. They are a means to help some get there and for others a different path can create the same goodness.

When I look at the evils in the world I believe some would be better off with Mormonism or some form of Christianity in their life to guide them. I believe some people are greatly benefited by having the "lower law" and following rules out of fear or belief of heaven. It might keep a spouse faithful to his or her family, keep a drug addict clean, keep someone honest, prevent murder or violence......... but it is not the higher law. An atheist who lives moral laws has become more like Christ than the theist who is doing it only because they believe God commanded it . Atheists are living the higher law in many ways,even though they don't attribute their choices to Christianity. I cringe when I hear Christians speak of the fears they have about atheists in this country.

The "Logs" in the church that would become evil without religion make me grateful that Christ came and gave laws for these types to follow. Maybe that is why God has allowed so much confusion and isn't clear about which religion is of Him.....He knows that for each of us the same path may not help us become who we need to be.

For myself, I can look back and see that Mormonism helped me to stay on the right path but also kept me from becoming the person that I believe Christ wants me to be. It's like the stepping stone that has helped me to progress to another part of this journey. I am sure there are Mormons who do the right thing without any motivation by a reward or fear of losing their eternal family, but these beliefs had held me back from having a healthy relationship with God. There are many great parts of relgion that have benefited my life and helped me nurture the good values and morals that God gives us through our conscience. I am grateful for those experiences I had in the LDS church that helped me on this journey.

[_Some Schmo]

This thread came to mind after some comments were directed at me from a TBM friend. She was telling me to see some vulgar movie since I am no longer active in church and that she would start watching these types of movies if she no longer was Mormon. Her husband said "so you think just because she doesn't go to church that her morals are suddenly gone?"
I let her know I don't have any interest in those types of movies and that none of my moral beliefs have changed since going inactive. No stronger temptations have come upon me to sin. She told me that if she ever lost her religion she would become a totally different person and do whatever she wanted. She can't believe I am not drinking alchohol and living for today because she claims that's what she would do. I think most of this is just rhetoric and some of it was also intended to imply what she wants to believe will happen to me if I don't go back to the Mormon church.

When I let go of my beliefs in the claims of Mormonism, the first thing I felt was a weight lifted. I was free to choose the right because the fruits of it were good, not because I had to get back to God and keep my eternal family. There were times in my life that I was motivated to follow the religion out of fear and "forever family." It wasn't the entire motivation-I also followed my conscience and wanted to show God I loved Him but I always had guilt and fear in the back of my mind.

Whenever I hear this sentimant expressed ("I'd be a sinner without religion") it reinforces my idea that religion and god belief is largely about escaping responsibility. There's just no doubt about it.

I left the church when I was 17 and totally went to town doing all kinds of things I wasn't supposed to do as a Mormon (breaking the WoW, mostly). That's the mentality of a kid. It's childish thinking.

Now that I'm older and have moved toward atheism, I find I value life far more and have no desire to treat my body poorly, because it's the smart, mature, responsible thing to do for myself and my family. I don't need some made up myth about the great score-keeper in the sky to keep me in line to do what's right, because I'm an adult.

It doesn't surprise me at all that adults in the church refer to themselves as "children of god." That's exactly what they are... literally.

[_Roger Morrison]

Sounds like something Paul said, "When i was a child i spoke as a child, i understood as a child, i thought as a child: but when i became a man (adult) i put away chldish things." (1 Cor, 13:11) One of my favourite chapters in the whole book. Too bad it's generally obscured by the blood-&-stuff... Warm regards, Roger

[_ajax18]

Whenever I hear this sentimant expressed ("I'd be a sinner without religion") it reinforces my idea that religion and god belief is largely about escaping responsibility. There's just no doubt about it.

I left the church when I was 17 and totally went to town doing all kinds of things I wasn't supposed to do as a Mormon (breaking the WoW, mostly). That's the mentality of a kid. It's childish thinking.

Now that I'm older and have moved toward atheism, I find I value life far more and have no desire to treat my body poorly, because it's the smart, mature, responsible thing to do for myself and my family. I don't need some made up myth about the great score-keeper in the sky to keep me in line to do what's right, because I'm an adult.

It doesn't surprise me at all that adults in the church refer to themselves as "children of god." That's exactly what they are... literally.

How do you feel or react if someone cheats or mistreats you? Does it bother you that they may have gotten away with it? Do you feel a need to try to settle the score with that person? Do you believe in trying to do so?

How bad does life have to get before you decide it's no longer worth living? Would you have kept on trying to make it as a Jew in Nazi Germany? What if you were to be paralyzed?

[_Some Schmo]

How do you feel or react if someone cheats or mistreats you?

I think it sucks. Sometimes it makes me angry, and sometimes, I just shake my head.

Does it bother you that they may have gotten away with it?

Sure.

Do you feel a need to try to settle the score with that person?

Depends on the situation and the offense. Some things I can let go; others aren't as easy.

Do you believe in trying to do so?

If someone seriously harmed my wife or daughter, for instance, I'd have no problem retaliating (which is saying something considering I'm mostly a pacifist). You don't f*** with my family. Other things are more forgivable.

How bad does life have to get before you decide it's no longer worth living?

Don't know. Life isn't that bad.

Would you have kept on trying to make it as a Jew in Nazi Germany?

Hard to say since I don't really know what it was like.

What if you were to be paralyzed?

Then I couldn't walk.

I'm not sure what any of these questions have to do with whether there's a god or not. What they sound like, however, are questions that speak to a person's motivation for believing in a god. That is for sure.

I am always sadly impressed with the god belief attitude that intimates personal impotence: "I can't get you, but god will. HA!"

Letting go of god belief is the first step toward genuine maturity and responsibility.

[_Yoda]

Letting go of god belief is the first step toward genuine maturity and responsibility.

I'm curious, Some Schmo. And, forgive me if I am asking something you have answered before. How do you feel about the finality of death? If you don't believe in a God, then I take it you don't believe there is any type of "after-life"?

I agree that we need to make the most of what this life has to offer. However, there are people who have passed away, who I genuinely miss, and honestly hope that "this is not it". I do hope that someday I will have the chance to see them again.

To me, I think this is the crux of why religion came into being. It was a way for man to make sense out of death, and what happens to our loved ones after this life.

I don't necessarily subscribe to Mormonism's belief system in the after-life, but I do believe that there is a God, a creator of the universe, and that someday, we will be able to be with our loved ones again.

[_Some Schmo]

Letting go of god belief is the first step toward genuine maturity and responsibility.

I'm curious, Some Schmo. And, forgive me if I am asking something you have answered before. How do you feel about the finality of death? If you don't believe in a God, then I take it you don't believe there is any type of "after-life"?

I agree that we need to make the most of what this life has to offer. However, there are people who have passed away, who I genuinely miss, and honestly hope that "this is not it". I do hope that someday I will have the chance to see them again.

To me, I think this is the crux of why religion came into being. It was a way for man to make sense out of death, and what happens to our loved ones after this life.

I don't necessarily subscribe to Mormonism's belief system in the after-life, but I do believe that there is a God, a creator of the universe, and that someday, we will be able to be with our loved ones again.

You have asked me this before. :)

No, I don't believe in an after-life. Again, it's wishful thinking, and I completely understand why people wish it (as you demonstrated in your post - I'd like to see my dead mother and sister again, too, but that doesn't mean I will).

I don't consider it a way of "making sense out of death" as much as "making death tolerable."

On issues like this, there are two broad types of people: those that seek comfort, and those that seek the truth. If I'm sick and go to the doctor, and he realizes I have cancer, he has two options: he can tell me I have cancer (the truth) or he can tell me everything is going to be fine (comfort). What I want to hear just depends on my value system. Some people don't care what the truth is if it makes life easier to deal with and them happier. Other people would rather be "in the know" and don't like to be lied to (nor lie to themselves) for the sake of warm fuzzies. It just depends on your priorities.

[_ajax18]

I just asked these questions because for me they would be very difficult answers to deal with in atheism. I thought perhaps you might have some information that I was missing that would make it more palatable. But I guess it is what it is. No they don't prove or disprove God. It just asks the question, so now you've gone towards atheism, what now?