"...A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet," (Joseph Smith, HC, vol. 6:408-409).
What is the HC? What is the context of this? What do apologetics say about this? TBM?
Just from an outsider investigating I feel unnerved when I read this.
It should be noted that the ellipses hide that Joseph was talking about the the Church he established lasting and that no other leader did do that. To take this as an indication that Joseph thought himself superior to the Savior is a REALLY large stretch. If he was superior he probably shouldn't have said that Christ was giving him revelations throughout the D&C. He also never once claimed he was God. Christ did and Joseph supported him in that claim.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Nehor, Joseph Smith saying that Christ was giving him the revelations in the D&C was absolutely necessary. After all, who would have followed him if he'd said "Thus saith the womanizer and lady's man, even Joseph Smith, unto you, my servant..."? It's not really a concession of humility that he ascribed these to Jesus Christ. After all, think about it, he's saying that you have to listen to what he (Joseph Smith) says because he's just repeating to you the words of Jesus Christ. He's appointed himself Deputy and Right Hand Man to Jesus Christ himself, and the boss isn't ever around, so the deputy is de facto boss himself.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
That statement was made right after Joseph had given the authority and keys of the church to the twelve, thereby establishing the roots of the church with the brethren instead of it all being on him.
Here is a talk on the subject of what is known as "The Last Charge", meaning he charged the Twelve with the keeping of the church.
Gazelam wrote:That statement was made right after Joseph had given the authority and keys of the church to the twelve, thereby establishing the roots of the church with the brethren instead of it all being on him.
Here is a talk on the subject of what is known as "The Last Charge", meaning he charged the Twelve with the keeping of the church.
I just fixed the link. Its only available on MP3. There is a great video for it, but I've only ever seen it on BYU channel, its not online. The talk ends with the recorded testimony of Wilford Woodruff stateing Joseph did indeed roll off the kingdom onto their shoulders, its awesome.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Gazelam wrote:I just fixed the link. Its only available on MP3. There is a great video for it, but I've only ever seen it on BYU channel, its not online. The talk ends with the recorded testimony of Wilford Woodruff stateing Joseph did indeed roll off the kingdom onto their shoulders, its awesome.
Thanks for the link. Too bad about the lack of text. Maybe you could type it all up for us and post it? (LOL)
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
Oh good grief. I just transcribed 75% of an old talk I had on cassette so I could make a post for Tal about discerning feelings from promptings of the Holy Ghost. ( I need to post that) I'm in no hurry to transcribe another any time soon.
I'll look and see if he said anything about it in his Joseph Smith book. There might be a line in there I could post here. That meeting was pretty awesome. Everyone there testified of the glow Joseph had in his face. I recommend listening to the MP3 because oyu get to actually hear Wilford Woodruffs voice testifying. Maybe that's why they don't offer a text version.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Sethbag wrote:Nehor, Joseph Smith saying that Christ was giving him the revelations in the D&C was absolutely necessary. After all, who would have followed him if he'd said "Thus saith the womanizer and lady's man, even Joseph Smith, unto you, my servant..."? It's not really a concession of humility that he ascribed these to Jesus Christ. After all, think about it, he's saying that you have to listen to what he (Joseph Smith) says because he's just repeating to you the words of Jesus Christ. He's appointed himself Deputy and Right Hand Man to Jesus Christ himself, and the boss isn't ever around, so the deputy is de facto boss himself.
Not really. The Seventh Cosmic Christ I met in England insists that his wisdom comes from within. Many belief systems have deified men. Christ was kinda unique in being halfway. He insisted all he had was from his Father.
In a way you're helping my point. Joseph would never claim supremacy over Jesus Christ as those who use this quote imply because he'd be undercutting everything he had said and done himself.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
HC means History of the Church, I believe. There is also a Documentary History of the Church, but I believe that is different. Same short-term memory problems, or I would be able to help you more.
HC is History of the Church and is the same thing that used to be called the Documentive History of the Church.
"...A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet," (Joseph Smith, HC, vol. 6:408-409).
Actually, once again Joseph was wrong (the man had a real talent for it!) The Christian church never disintegrated. It's still around with billions of followers in various sects around the world. It was certainly around when Joseph was alive. Just because he claimed he was told the churches were all wrong doesn't mean the church disintegrated or failed.
