beastie wrote:
Oh, of course. That's a nice way to justify bad behavior, isn't it? "I'm just trying to teach them a lesson."
I can be very civil, as you well know. So you don't grasp the root of this problem.
Of course you can be very civil. You can also be extremely rude and vulgar. You are giving various reasons for your rude and vulgar behavior - you only engaged in this behavior for a reason, or to "mirror". (and other people who engage in rude behavior don't feel justified in the same way????) Other than that, I don't know what "this" problem in particular is you are referring to, but I'll guess. One problem is your own bad behavior, or the bad behavior of specific others. You seem to believe that the bad behavior of one group (you in specific, and believers in general) is justified
and simply reflects the reaction to being attacked first, or perhaps reflects a deeply engrained theology which we shouldn't expect to be altered. You also seem to believe that the bad behavior of the other group (the RfMers in specific, all other exmormons who don't somehow exercise their omnipotence and stop RfMers) is a reflection of their own malicious natures, totally without justification.
The reason I cannot grasp the root of this problem is because we have a fundamentally different view of the playing field. I view the playing field as human behavior, without any divine approbation or condemnation. You view the playing field with one side receiving divine approbation, the other receiving divine condemnation. So of course you're going to view the problem differently than I do. I don't see your behavior, or the behavior of those who categorize exmormons as failing to believe due to personal flaws or sin, as justified in any way due to some divine approval. I see your behavior just like I see the behavior of RfMers. Both sides feel justified, both sides feel attacked first, both sides believe they are simply defending themselves or trying to alter behavior of the other through some "lesson". RfMers who have decided to actively work or campaign against the church in some way say they do so because the church continues to send out missionaries. You say you will continue to attack us (who may or may not behave the way the same aggressive RfMers behave) as long as angry exmormons continue their attacks. No divine approbation on either side. Just humans behaving in interesting, predictable, and sometimes unfortunate ways.
No doubt, but always for a reason. I don't deny I'm like Wade, who was my opponent on Z. We've managed to establish much better communication and understanding. But of course this is all "fake" on my part, one of my "many faces". When I finally decided to listen to Wade , and not try to read his mind like many here do, my opinion of him changed, and to his credit he changed a lot too. I can disagree with him without labeling him, or calling him names. The others here can't.
So now you have two mentors - Wade and pahoran.
beastie wrote:
two - you "mirror" the behavior not to just those demonstrating the behavior, but to others whom you have decided are accountable in some way for the behavior of others.
Sounds like a real fob off, beastie. You justify your own attacks on Mormon fundamentals "because of the behaviour of others". Remember, you don't want to change the Church, but you do want to change it.
I have already explained this to you, Ray. You stopped listening when you decided the playing field was no longer just people behaving as people, and decided it was really the good guys against the bad guys. But for what it's worth, I'll try again:
I do not have enough emotional investment personally to actively want, or hope, the church to change in a way that I think would improve future relationships between believers and exbelievers: to stop teaching that "apostates" stop believing due to personal flaws or sin and are being influenced by satan. I don't live in an LDS saturated area, and my LDS family is quite liberal. It does not affect me personally, the way it affects others. But in behalf of the others I see so affected, I would like to see the church change this, because until it does, the cycle of anger and resentment won't stop, because that is where the seed is planted.
You call this an "attack". I call it a criticism of one particular claim of the LDS church. But as long as something like that feel like an "attack" to you, or to other believers, then you will feel justified in personally attacking me in return. Yet I didn't attack - not you, personally, or others, or even the LDS church as a whole. I criticized one particular teaching. How did criticizing one particular teaching become an "attack", particularly in the minds of those who insist that prophets do a whole lot of teaching their own opinions, that are not binding on the church?
And you still miss my primary point - you are attacking people who are not engaging in the ugly, personal attacks of a few on RfM. You justify attacking those who do not, and have never, engaged in this behavior by holding all exmormons accountable, in some vague way, for the behavior of a vocal few.
Did I say my motives were "righteous"?
You state that it is justified, or you are "mirroring" behavior for a positive change. Call it whatever word you like. You still get to feel good about it, which is the entire point. We human beings are notorious at that - identifying behavior in the "others" that we then label as evil, malicious, selfish, (add pejoratives here) while blithely ignoring and/or justifying the
exact same behavior in ourselves and our tribe. beastie wrote:
I'm too old to fall for that. Try selling it to someone who hasn't been around you this long, and has far less life experience. Or try selling it to someone who has an emotional investment in believing it - like yourself. Oh wait, you already sealed that particular deal, haven't you?
If you have always thought this, you never mentioned it before. But frankly, I don't care what you think. I do value the opinions of some people I respect.
I've never seen you justify your behavior a la Wade before. That is what changed my opinion. I had a great deal of sympathy for your outburst on RfM. But each outburst makes the previous more questionable. I guess you've just gone over the tipping point. Is it that your outbursts are justified, or that you have a tendency to engage in outbursts for other reasons, and then find a way to justify them?
Look at what you've done on this thread to John. John is one of the most reasonable posters I've ever met. He's struggled lately. Look how you treated him on this thread. in my opinion, your behavior towards him reveals you have no judgment in this matter - any attack on an exbeliever is now justified, due to the bad behavior of other exmormons. Yeah, that pushes you over the tipping point for sure.