The Responsibility of Church Leaders....

[_gramps]

The LDS do not make a claim for the inerrancy of any Scripture.

Yes, right, but the Book of Mormon is the most correct of them all, right?

Most correct of any book on Earth, that doesn't make it inerrant.

Wasn't at all implying that it was.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

If people thought they knew it all I doubt the "Work and the Glory" would have sold so well. They saw it as accessible and fun history (though calling it history is quite the leap) and the people ate it up and discussed aspects of it often. You can't walk into a Church bookstore without seeing many books extrapolating Book of Mormon history or discussing Biblical archaeology and the like. Only a few people buy those but half the adult members I know have now read "Work and the Glory". So the key to selling LDS history to members is to sensationalize....in other words, be less exact about fact. No matter what my gripes about capitalism are it would work in this respect. There are MANY people who would flood the market with books on every aspect of LDS and Book of Mormon history if it was more than a niche market. There isn't.

Well, first this women does indeed think the Work and the Glory is actual, factual church history. And she does indeed think she knows the truth, in fact she believes she is very well informed. She is not scholarly but rather simple which makes the whole issue worse in my mind.

The church seems to allow the more simple or less educated go along with this nonsense knowing the more educated or scholarly will realize that the "story" is not true. It is the more simple or believing members who are taken advantage of.

And also... Nehor, everyone doesn't live in Utah! Prior to the internet how do you think one would stumble upon real church history? I mean seriously. We don't even have one book about Mormonism in our county library, let alone a bookstore.


I try not to believe church leaders are less the decent men but this issue makes it difficult for me to believe they care much for members at all.

~dancer~

[_Some Schmo]

Very good. So you know enough about the religion to answer the questions in a way to get the result you wanted. Bravo.

Paradoxically, your deception (to us and yourself) tell a truth.

"I scored as a strong Yellow on the personaility test."
"HAAAA!!! That just proves you know how to work the test. You're an obvious Red."

If the whole Chapel and Intenet thing mean anything (which I don't think they do) what would you rate me as Schmo?

I always suspect personality tests for the exact reason you demonstrated with your quoted scenario. They rarely test who a person is as much as who they'd like to be or want to world to think of them.

As far as you're concerned, Nehor, it's hard for me to say. You seem like you're right down the middle. I wouldn't want to call you a hard-core Internet Mormon anyway; I like you too much to insult you like that.

[_The Nehor]

Hi Nehor...

Well, first this women does indeed think the Work and the Glory is actual, factual church history. And she does indeed think she knows the truth, in fact she believes she is very well informed. She is not scholarly but rather simple which makes the whole issue worse in my mind.

The church seems to allow the more simple or less educated go along with this nonsense knowing the more educated or scholarly will realize that the "story" is not true. It is the more simple or believing members who are taken advantage of.

And also... Nehor, everyone doesn't live in Utah! Prior to the internet how do you think one would stumble upon real church history? I mean seriously. We don't even have one book about Mormonism in our county library, let alone a bookstore.


I try not to believe church leaders are less the decent men but this issue makes it difficult for me to believe they care much for members at all.

~dancer~

Then she is simple and there's not much you can do. I'd hand her my whole Nibley collection, several books on the Temple, and my Journal of Discourses set to help her start if I thought it would help. I'm not sure how she's being taken advantage of. I would love to teach her and others if I and they had the time. In one Bishopric meeting a few years ago we decided to have a Sacrament Meeting focussing on lifelong learning. Not sure how successful it was but we encouraged people to figure out where they were ignorant and correct the matter.

I've never lived in Utah and never lacked for books. Back in the day you could still order them. With the Internet and Amazon not having access to an LDS Bookstore is a bad excuse.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor...

You are missing the point.

For many people in the church they are not interested in learning from neighbors or non-LDS writers... they get their information from God's chosen men.

They believe they are receiving truth when the leaders speak, when they read church manuals, and when they attend Sunday School.

Why should they believe you when they have the prophets to receive information from?

It is the church leaders who are creating the problem by not teaching truth when they clearly realize what is going on.

Why do you justify this? Why do you not care that people are being decived by church leaders?

I'm glad you would be willing to help people understand but most believers would take the teaching of a prophet over you... (no offense). (smile)

In order for these members to go outside and look for new information it would mean doubting or not trusting the church leaders. Do you see this?

In terms of obtaining information.... how would one know to look for new information if they didn't even know it existed? Who is going to google the limited geography theory? I mean seriously. These people are not interested in learning from non-LDS sources. They have no clue there is even such a thing as apologists or FARMS or whatever. They have no reason to look further.

Try putting yourself into their situation Nehor.

I go back to the belief that the church is taking advantage of those who are trusting and believing but not disclosing the truth.

~dancer~

[_Daniel Peterson]

Are most LDS fundamentalists in that they believe that there was a literal Adam and Eve and a garden of Eden?

Believing Latter-day Saints overwhelmingly believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a garden of Eden.

I do.

But that doesn't necessarily make them fundamentalists.

I'm not.

It seems that to believe that you would have to discount much of evolution and science that points to evolution.

It depends on what you make of the Eden story. I believe in science, and I believe in evolution. I suspect that the Eden story was something quite different from the way fundamentalist Protestants (and many Mormons) understand it.

A topic for an interesting discussion. One that I won't have here.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Hi Nehor...

You are missing the point.

For many people in the church they are not interested in learning from neighbors or non-LDS writers... they get their information from God's chosen men.

They believe they are receiving truth when the leaders speak, when they read church manuals, and when they attend Sunday School.

Why should they believe you when they have the prophets to receive information from?

It is the church leaders who are creating the problem by not teaching truth when they clearly realize what is going on.

Why do you justify this? Why do you not care that people are being decived by church leaders?

I'm glad you would be willing to help people understand but most believers would take the teaching of a prophet over you... (no offense). (smile)

In order for these members to go outside and look for new information it would mean doubting or not trusting the church leaders. Do you see this?

In terms of obtaining information.... how would one know to look for new information if they didn't even know it existed? Who is going to google the limited geography theory? I mean seriously. These people are not interested in learning from non-LDS sources. They have no clue there is even such a thing as apologists or FARMS or whatever. They have no reason to look further.

Try putting yourself into their situation Nehor.

I go back to the belief that the church is taking advantage of those who are trusting and believing but not disclosing the truth.

~dancer~

This is the exact problem we are having in my home! I can't stress this enough that a 12 year old LDS boy believes that people that say Joseph Smith had more than one wife are LIARS! Who told him this? He's been told that things that are ACTUALLY TRUE about the Church are LIES created by anti-Mormons! He told his father that he believed his father hated him and his religion because he obviously spends time on anti-Mormon websites! The only information we gained and he discussed with his son came directly from FAIR! I don't know what else to do. It is very frustrating.

My husband emailed his son's step-father looking for some guidance and step-son's mother emailed back a terse reply of "We are not in a cult!" And that was it! WTF???? The email asked about step-son and his belief that certain things in the Church were untrue and his father was worried about him finding out they were indeed true and having issues with his faith. He was very respectful and asked for some advice as to how we could cooperate to help step-son with this. And this is the reply he got!

There's a problem here. And I can tell you I don't think it's just in our home!

[_Mercury]

Wow! I was not aware of this. From posting on MAD I thought most LDS did not believe in a literal garden of eden. I'm really surprised by this.

Let's back up a little. The people on MAD are what's called "Internet Mormons." They differ quite vastly from the "Chapel Mormons" which make up at least 95% of the rest of Mormondom.

To better get a grasp of the situation, I recommend reading Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons before your next visit to MAD.

I've taken the Shades quiz. I come out of it as a "chapel Mormon."

Yet, I suspect, I'm supposed to be the quintessential "internet Mormon."

His "vast" dichotomy is bogus.

Danny, you are the epitome of internet Mormon. The fact you know of the vast issues with Mormonism alone qualifies you as such.

Just because you disagree with the classification does not mean you are free from said classification.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It's not my disagreement with Shades's categories that renders them dubious. They're undermined by the fact that, according to the profile generated by my answers to his diagnostic questions, I plainly violate his neat little schematization.

[_The Nehor]

Hi Nehor...

You are missing the point.

For many people in the church they are not interested in learning from neighbors or non-LDS writers... they get their information from God's chosen men.

They believe they are receiving truth when the leaders speak, when they read church manuals, and when they attend Sunday School.

Why should they believe you when they have the prophets to receive information from?

It is the church leaders who are creating the problem by not teaching truth when they clearly realize what is going on.

Why do you justify this? Why do you not care that people are being decived by church leaders?

I'm glad you would be willing to help people understand but most believers would take the teaching of a prophet over you... (no offense). (smile)

In order for these members to go outside and look for new information it would mean doubting or not trusting the church leaders. Do you see this?

In terms of obtaining information.... how would one know to look for new information if they didn't even know it existed? Who is going to google the limited geography theory? I mean seriously. These people are not interested in learning from non-LDS sources. They have no clue there is even such a thing as apologists or FARMS or whatever. They have no reason to look further.

Try putting yourself into their situation Nehor.

I go back to the belief that the church is taking advantage of those who are trusting and believing but not disclosing the truth.

~dancer~

I believe that at least 30% of what is said in most Church meetings is true. Most of the remaining 70% is fluff.....mostly harmless. On the whole they are teaching truth. They just don't seem to be teaching the truth you want them to teach. In the defense of my leaders whenever something very wrong is taught they generally try to talk to the individual about what was said. It happened to me once.

The Prophet and the Church can not and will not be the primary source for teaching history. Outside of some stories that teach lessons we really don't touch on it much. There are sources all over to find out more. It's not the Catholic Priest's job to teach Catholic history. Most Baptist and Evangelical Churches I've attended don't touch on history at all unless it's in Scripture. We do a little more than them but not much.

However I have not seen the revelation or mandate to the Church (the organization, not the people) to teach history, parallel studies, and the culture of the past. It's not under their mandate. Most of the errors I've seen corrected as I said above were doctrinal ones. There is no requirement that I'm aware of to know these things to qualify for any degree of glory. We have a mandate to learn these things in the D&C but it says we are to learn these things to serve better. Better people than I have been saved without knowing them.

This mindset is kinda foreign to me. Though I have a hard time seeing how people can be uninterested in explanations of the Big Bang, the fate of the Universe, the nature of the Universe, and many other things. They don't have the impetus to find out. I don't know how to correct this or even if i should if I could.

I think the dividing line we have is what we think Church Leaders are responsible for. I believe the Church is responsible to correct false doctrine being taught and that's about it. History is best left to the historians and scholars of which the Church leadership is generally not. Plus Church leaders don't have the time to be fact-police. Having lived around Bishops and the like my whole life I can say this with certainty. I have a friend who is a Bishop who will sometimes ask me questions about history and more obscure doctrines. I still feel that spiritually the man is light-years ahead of me.

I don't see the deception you do.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't comment on the above case of the 12 year old. I don't know who told him that. I am surprised he didn't know. I was about 8 when the other kids at school would ask me how many wives my dad had. I've never heard a Church Leader say that, I'm guessing it was an overly zealous parent in an emotionally charged situation speaking out of ignorance.