Proof that the membership numbers are cooked

[_Mercury]

PP, it's worse than that: Sometimes they don't even bother removing people who die. Not only that, but sometimes, with a few keystrokes, add "ghost members" that don't actually exist.

All it takes to discover this is to do the math, which I did at:

http://www.mormoninformation.com/stats.htm

You continue to roll this out as if it is some great discovery when oonly noe year has an oddity and we are not even sure your conclusion about the data is accurate.

How do you explain the Chilean Census numbers vs the churches numbers? Jason, you cannot win this argument. Your wrong on all accounts.

Whats happened to you lately? You used to be less bitter and more reasonable.

[_Jason Bourne]

How do you explain the Chilean Census numbers vs the churches numbers? Jason, you cannot win this argument. Your wrong on all accounts.

If you read above you will note that I said the records do not account for those who are inactive and do not consider themselves Mormon but have not bothered to have their name removed. So I agee with that. The Church includes people who no longer think they are members. I would guess at least 100 of the 500 members of my ward would fall into such a category.

Whats happened to you lately? You used to be less bitter and more reasonable.

Well today I have a migraine headache. Thus I am working less and messing around on the internet. Plus I am on drugs for my headache which makes me a bit spacey.

[_Ray A]

A well known former Mormon has posted the following on RfM

Six years ago he and his wife file their resignation letters. They both received a confirmation that their names were removed.

Not so.

He recently found out his wife is still on the books "in good standing".

They lie about the membership numbers. This is hard evidence.

Porter, you sound like a raving lunatic by doing all these posts. It's obvious, numbnut, you're just tryng to put as many negative posts about Mormonism on here as you can. You HATE the presence of defenders, and Mormons, and you want them expunged from this board.

Well I have news for you - you're in for a prolonged fight.

[_Mercury]

A well known former Mormon has posted the following on RfM

Six years ago he and his wife file their resignation letters. They both received a confirmation that their names were removed.

Not so.

He recently found out his wife is still on the books "in good standing".

They lie about the membership numbers. This is hard evidence.

Porter, you sound like a raving lunatic by doing all these posts. It's obvious, numbnut, you're just tryng to put as many negative posts about Mormonism on here as you can. You HATE the presence of defenders, and Mormons, and you want them expunged from this board.

Well I have news for you - you're in for a prolonged fight.

Once again a post that is all talk and no substance.

[_Polygamy Porter]

Porter, you sound like a raving lunatic by doing all these posts. It's obvious, numbnut, you're just tryng to put as many negative posts about Mormonism on here as you can. You HATE the presence of defenders, and Mormons, and you want them expunged from this board.

Well I have news for you - you're in for a prolonged fight.

Ray, I love having defenders like yourself here. It is very entertaining.

I am right and defenders like you are dead wrong.

The entertainment value comes from watching defends attempt to contort the truth to keep the church "true".

Posters like you who DO NOT subscribe to the principles of the religion that you defend are the most entertaining.

He rides a bike and defends the SUV drivers!

[_Mephitus]

Its like people who defend the idea that the holocaust never occurred. Even though all information that exists PROVES that it occurred, people who base their world view on erroneous/misleading ideals end up defending themselves until they die rather than accept that they where possibly wrong. likewise improving themselves and/or others in the process. "Feeling" there was no wrongdoing, or at worst a mild mistake, merely validates this to them.

"Feelings" will always carry more weight to many than what you could ever prove to them with facts.

[_Ray A]

The entertainment value comes from watching defends attempt to contort the truth to keep the church "true".

Posters like you who DO NOT subscribe to the principles of the religion that you defend are the most entertaining.

He rides a bike and defends the SUV drivers!

You seem quite obsessed with this, Porter. You have given Why Me the same dishing out. I do actually subscribe to many LDS beliefs. However, I have no bones with being called a hypocrite. Entertain yourself! People who smoke and drink to excess, knowing of the dangers, are also in that sense hypocrites. They know it's bad for them, but they still do it. Do you realise that if you consume more than three standards a day your health is in danger? What else do you do that you know is bad for you, but still continue to do it? Care to be honest? We are ALL hypocrites in some sense, Porter, and if you cannot admit this - you're the greatest hypocrite of all! The greatest sin is to be conscious of none.

Then consider your own hypocrisy, Porter. Having thrown away your LDS moral standards you can now gloat with self-righteousness that you can go to a bar and get blind drunk without any scruples. You can screw who you like, drink what you like, do what you like, and throw the charge of "hypocrisy" at those who at least recognise that some people are far better than they are. I recognise my failings, you justify yours, and that's the main difference. And this is by no means an "LDS thing", it is universal. If you cheat on your wife, then you're a HYPOCRITE. I'm not saying you do, but following your standards of what's right or wrong, anyone who cheats, and anyone who lies, is also a hypocrite.

Do not apply these standards to LDS alone. They are universal.

[_Loquacious Lurker]

Hi, Ray. I just want to point something out, if I might.

Having thrown away your LDS moral standards you can now gloat with self-righteousness that you can go to a bar and get blind drunk without any scruples. You can screw who you like, drink what you like, do what you like...And this is by no means an "LDS thing", it is universal....Do not apply these standards to LDS alone. They are universal.

Ray. The world is full of people who have several glasses of wine with dinner, and have engaged in premarital sex. That's simply a fact. The world is not headed into a downward spiral into Hell, the world is not cracking apart at the seams because of it. This trend has been going on for many thousands of years. It is nothing new. The same thing was true in ancient Rome, in Egypt ruled by the Pharoahs, in medieval Europe. If the world was going to Hell in a handbasket because of it, it would have already. It seems to me that leaders of churches, not just the LDS, would like to whip their congregations into a frenzy of worry over something that has always been true of human beings. Their motive is...what...guilt? Probably. Guilt is a good way to control people.

At any rate. You're supposing that Porter flouts these imaginary health laws proscribed by a man who himself owned a bar, and that this for some reason makes Porter a hypocrite. (Actually, drinking wine in moderation is quite good for your health, and doctors will prescribe it as a means of lowering risk of heart disease. There is even evidence that it lowers risk of some cancers.) Ray, you sound to the rest of the world much like the Amish might sound to you when they say, "It is this wicked use of buttons on clothing that draws mankind from God. It is pride, it is vanity, it is the wiles of Satan, that people wear buttons on their clothes."

Are buttons really so bad? Is your life worse, because of the buttons on your shirt? The Amish would say so.

Your diatribe against alcohol sounds similar.

Porter makes me laugh sometimes, and sometimes I find him even too abrasive for my taste. Nevertheless. Your supposition of his alcohol consumption, and its ill effects, stemming from a narrow world view, are erroneous.

[_Ray A]

Ray. The world is full of people who have several glasses of wine with dinner, and have engaged in premarital sex. That's simply a fact. The world is not headed into a downward spiral into Hell, the world is not cracking apart at the seams because of it. This trend has been going on for many thousands of years.

I know, well documented by Edward Gibbon, for one, as you note.

At any rate. You're supposing that Porter flouts these imaginary health laws proscribed by a man who himself owned a bar, and that this for some reason makes Porter a hypocrite. (Actually, drinking wine in moderation is quite good for your health, and doctors will prescribe it as a means of lowering risk of heart disease. There is even evidence that it lowers risk of some cancers.)

Nothing I don't know.

Ray, you sound to the rest of the world much like the Amish might sound to you when they say, "It is this wicked use of buttons on clothing that draws mankind from God. It is pride, it is vanity, it is the wiles of Satan, that people wear buttons on their clothes."

Are buttons really so bad? Is your life worse, because of the buttons on your shirt? The Amish would say so.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not exactly Amish in my thinking. I don't even sign petitions to close porn shops or brothels, so I'd hardly worry about shirt buttons. Like the rest of society I'm realistic.

Your diatribe against alcohol sounds similar.

Maybe you don't realise that I do drink, so let me qualify again. It's not alcohol per se which is the problem, but the resulting behaviour in some people who cannot control alcohol intake. I deal with drunks everyday of my life - literally. If you'd like to read one account, see my blog on MAD:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/blog/ray_a/index.php? (The link won't work unless you paste it separately from here.)

I know what the "real world" is all about. Maybe more so than most here.

Porter makes me laugh sometimes, and sometimes I find him even too abrasive for my taste. Nevertheless. Your supposition of his alcohol consumption, and its ill effects, stemming from a narrow world view, are erroneous.

No, not a narrow worldview, but a very realistic one. I'm at the grassroots of society and I know what the common people are thinking.