The irony of forever families charade to never mo families

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_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Blixa wrote:I don't think you'll find anything in the Book of Mormon that will speak to this, barrel. If you haven't already noticed there is a difference between early Joseph Smith (Book of Mormon) and late Joseph Smith (everything else). There are plenty of contradictory elements between the two bodies of his writings. He made it up as he went along, or perhaps he only decided to produce a full-blown religious organization after the success he had getting people to believe in the plates; this would explain why the "two halves" aren't tightly joined.

I agree with you that most standard issue christian sects imagine the afterlife as a place where one will be reunited with friends and loved ones. The difference for the LDS is that the afterlife is imagined as an endless cycle of gods producing spirit families, testing them with planetary trials, exalting them to start the whole thing over again. I think it is partly this that gave rise to the obsession with lineage that sealing is about. It also, I think, has roots in some of the ideas recently discussed on several threads here, that different lineages, bloodlines etc, are more righteous and have higher status. It also ties in with the racial ideas that I think run through Mormonism like the notion that when you are baptized, endowed, etc., given your tribe, your blood literally changes to that "tribe blood"---you become on a kind of biological level non-Gentile (ok, I actually need help fleshing this one out. Anyone give me some sources for it, so I can think/write more?).


I didn't realize that the "tribe blood" or family lines were of such import. I've actually been thinking of the early LDS and it seems to me that perhaps one of the most troubling things to me was the hierarchy. I suppose there's a "mainstream" Christian in me somewhere because on the face of this it seems backwards to what Christianity taught, or what I always believed it to be. I can actually understand how some mainstream Christians would be aghast to believe that any other Christian denomination would say that God essentially judges us by our family names. That just doesn't make sense when you look at what Christ taught.

Where did the idea of man becoming God and couples creating spirits in heaven originate?

That's the "theological" side as it were. The practical/cultural side is what other posters have been detailing: the stress it puts on parents and marriage partners if anyone should "fall away." As Gaz quotes, not only are individuals judged, but we are also judged as families. Thus, you supposedly endanger your family's salvation/exaltation if you apostasize (though there are also ways this is contradicted too, through sealings and other beliefs).


I read what Gaz wrote and didn't understand it apparently. I'll go back and reread it after I post this.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Gaz's comments are in the other thread---I only realized it after I hit submit. I was mostly referring the bits at the end about being judged as families as well as individuals.

I don't have anything at hand to explain some of what I wrote more fully. Perhaps I can later, or others will chime in.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Jason Bourne
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Re: The irony of forever families charade to never mo famili

Post by _Jason Bourne »

In my experience, the majority of nevermo family baptisms here in the US were typically only the women.



In my experience this happens some, maybe when it is a couple it might be more often that if one does not join it is the husband, though I have seen cased in the opposite. Yet I would agree that more often if only one joins it is the woman.

What does this do?


Oh I am sure you are going to tell us.

Quite often, the couple was just fine and happy, living "until death do they part".


Really? How do you know? Are you the fly on the wall?

Along comes a pushy Mormon coworker, neighbor, friend, or the heavy knock of the dweeb duo dressed in shark suits.

They play on the emotion of the woman, who is then baptized and the hubby opts out.


They do? How so?

The newly baptized wife is now expected to attend her wonderful new church service ALONE as often her husband wants nothing to do with it. IF he does attend, he quickly feels the sting be label as the "non member husband".


He does? We have a at least two non LDS hubbied that attend with their wives regularly. One has served in the activites committee. They seem wuite happy and are not labeled as anything.

She is greeted with pitiful stares from the condescending women of the Relief Society. "Oh look, another convert who has a hard hearted stubborn husband huh?"


Condescending. Oh bull hucky. You are such a blatent spin doctor.

For her to fit in, she feels like she must publicly commit herself to converting her non Mormon hubby so that she can be with her children as a forever family.


No she must not. She may want to but she will be accepted as she is.

In reality, this typically does not happen and soon this poor woman is an emotional train wreck waiting to happen. My wife saw it far too often while she served as the secretary in the Relief Society. Many will end up divorced because it literally drives a wedge between the once happy couple.


How many PP? How many did you see? I have seen let me see....zero...in the situation you describe. And I am sure my experience with this as far broader with this then yours. Keep the dung coming bud. It is getting pretty deep.



If you do not, I will continue my exmormon mission until the day I grow old and die. My children are already following my example and reavealing the ugly truths of Mormonism to friends at school.



So you will keep spewing forth your filthy lies like this post?

I have the upper hand. It is far easier to tell the truth about your cult than it is for you to lure one to pass through the turnstile in the baptismal font at the stake center

]

Problem is you do not know what the truth is. You are an angry bitter man that will use distortion and hlaf truths to further your agenda.

And you are not scary. Continue on fool.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jersey Girl wrote:
For her to fit in, she feels like she must publicly commit herself to converting her non Mormon hubby so that she can be with her children as a forever family.


I know a never-Mo woman who was drawn in by the promise of being with her infant who died at birth for eternity. She made attempts to convert the husband (with help from missionaries) and when that didn't pan out, she took up with one of the male members in the church. The husband ended up trying to kill himself which was thwarted by US posters on an online message board who sent the cops directly to his door in the UK. The wife ended up leaving him AND the kids. She did this believing that the church would support her financially. When they wouldn't, she ended up in government assisted housing.


Sure. Some people do stupid things. And this proves what?
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
For her to fit in, she feels like she must publicly commit herself to converting her non Mormon hubby so that she can be with her children as a forever family.


I know a never-Mo woman who was drawn in by the promise of being with her infant who died at birth for eternity. She made attempts to convert the husband (with help from missionaries) and when that didn't pan out, she took up with one of the male members in the church. The husband ended up trying to kill himself which was thwarted by US posters on an online message board who sent the cops directly to his door in the UK. The wife ended up leaving him AND the kids. She did this believing that the church would support her financially. When they wouldn't, she ended up in government assisted housing.


Sure. Some people do stupid things. And this proves what?


That the church not only doesn't prevent people from doing stupid things, it actually actively contributes to people doing stupid things.

Too bad I had to spell that out for ya.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Some Schmo wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
For her to fit in, she feels like she must publicly commit herself to converting her non Mormon hubby so that she can be with her children as a forever family.


I know a never-Mo woman who was drawn in by the promise of being with her infant who died at birth for eternity. She made attempts to convert the husband (with help from missionaries) and when that didn't pan out, she took up with one of the male members in the church. The husband ended up trying to kill himself which was thwarted by US posters on an online message board who sent the cops directly to his door in the UK. The wife ended up leaving him AND the kids. She did this believing that the church would support her financially. When they wouldn't, she ended up in government assisted housing.


Sure. Some people do stupid things. And this proves what?


That the church not only doesn't prevent people from doing stupid things, it actually actively contributes to people doing stupid things.

Too bad I had to spell that out for ya.


Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Jason Bourne wrote: Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.


Certainly, membership within or without the church is not the determining factor for a person's stupidity, as this board regularly demonstrates. The point is that the church can actually make a dumb person dumber.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Some Schmo wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote: Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.


Certainly, membership within or without the church is not the determining factor for a person's stupidity, as this board regularly demonstrates. The point is that the church can actually make a dumb person dumber.


Or maybe the person is just dumb and would be dumb in any given situation. I am amazed at how LDS people can be dumb and come to dumb conclusions and do stupid things. But is the Church or is it the way the person is?
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote: Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.


Certainly, membership within or without the church is not the determining factor for a person's stupidity, as this board regularly demonstrates. The point is that the church can actually make a dumb person dumber.


Or maybe the person is just dumb and would be dumb in any given situation. I am amazed at how LDS people can be dumb and come to dumb conclusions and do stupid things. But is the Church or is it the way the person is?


Yes, of course, a person can be dumb no matter what the situation is, or what he/she believes. You're missing the point.

The point is that the church actively exacerbates the problem of personal stupidity.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Some Schmo wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote: Does it

For some maybe. But it seems leaving the Church has not really helped some of you from stupidity either. PP is a fine specimen of this.


Certainly, membership within or without the church is not the determining factor for a person's stupidity, as this board regularly demonstrates. The point is that the church can actually make a dumb person dumber.


Or maybe the person is just dumb and would be dumb in any given situation. I am amazed at how LDS people can be dumb and come to dumb conclusions and do stupid things. But is the Church or is it the way the person is?


Yes, of course, a person can be dumb no matter what the situation is, or what he/she believes. You're missing the point.

The point is that the church actively exacerbates the problem of personal stupidity.



Please give me a few examples.

Thanks.
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