BYU Enrollment dropping

[_DonBradley]

BYU has for years been turning away most of its applicants. It is difficult--impossible--for me to believe that it can't now find enough students to match its previous enrollment levels. It seems most likely to me that the university has been reducing its admissions all on its own, though I have no idea why this would be happening.

Don

Don's right. If BYU's enrollment is decreasing it's because the school wants fewer students--they turn down a lot these days. The desirability of going to BYU among LDS is just as high as ever. Now though, there are some alternatives. Ricks(BYU Idaho) and UVSC are now four year schools and there is a school back in Virginia as well which is popular among LDS.

Thanks for endorsement of this, A.I.! BYU is very academically selective, and could swell its student body at any time just by lowering its admission requirements.

But the assumption among many is that statistics like this point to a rapid decline in church membership. This--like so many other hasty conclusions on church growth--is sheer wishful thinking on their part. While there certainly are statistics indicating that many LDS converts in developing nations are 'inactive' or no longer consider themselves LDS at all, the predictions that the church is about to implode are both historically and statistically uninformed. Church growth is moderately leveling off, but the church is still growing, not shrinking. And predictions of the imminent demise of Mormonism have been with us for 177 years. The church has survived much greater crises and disconfirmations than anything rearing its head now. Even the revelation that the Book of Abraham didn't match its alleged source produced only a trickle of apostasies. At the time the papyri were recovered, the church had about two million members. The number of these who left over this discovery may have been as little as a few hundred, and likely did not exceed a few thousand. There is no evidence of a significant exodus at that time--and this in the face of one of the strongest disconfirmations of LDS belief imaginable. If evidentiary revelations of this sort were going to cripple the church, they would have done it already.

Mormonism, despite what many critics may wish, is alive and doing just fine, and will likely continue to thrive for the indefinite future.

Don

[_guy sajer]

BYU, IMHO, is in most respects an excellent university. One can get a very high quality education there. It also has a tremendous success rate in placing students in top graduate programs. I liked and respected most of my colleagues, many of who are intelligent, reasonable, and accomplished. I have mostly fond memories of my time there.

That said, I am actively discouraging all of my children from going there. My oldest son is off to Az State U in another month, so 1 down, 3 to go. (He told me the other day that "The Mormon Church is complete bullsh**." Oh how my heart swelled with pride.) I think one can get as good an education elsewhere at comparable cost but without all the attendant indoctrination. And the indoctrination process at BYU and affiliated student wards is intense.

If one sees college as a time of growth, experimentation, learning about oneself, assessing alternative points of view, associating with diverse people from diverse backgrounds, and learning to think critically about ALL things, I would strongly discourage them from attending BYU. If you think that life offers multiple paths to knowledge, wisdom, "truth," and that life is about choosing one's own path and learning about oneself in the process. If you see life as a journey rather than a destination, then by all means DO NOT go to BYU.

If, on the other hand, one sees college as a time to embed traditional beliefs, associate with people who believe like you do, follow a path chosen by others (primarily parents), protect you from evil influences, keep you within externally prescribed boundaries in terms of both thought and behavior, or if you believe life points you to a pre-determined destination, then BYU is the place for you.

I received a good education at BYU, and I had a very good career there; nonetheless, the single biggest regret of my life is the time I wasted at BYU (and, of course, the years I wasted in the Mormon vortex).

[_harmony]

The church has survived much greater crises and disconfirmations than anything rearing its head now. Even the revelation that the Book of Abraham didn't match its alleged source produced only a trickle of apostasies. At the time the papyri were recovered, the church had about two million members. The number of these who left over this discovery may have been as little as a few hundred, and likely did not exceed a few thousand.

The church has suffered several crises of faith, starting with the exodus from Missouri. Then there was the Manifesto. Then there was the lifting of the priesthood ban. Then there was the Book of Abraham debacle. People will keep the faith, simply because keeping the faith makes them happy, until it no longer does... then they will leave.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Good for you. If they read the book, they will readily understand the precedent for massacre of women and children and the curse of black skin, and if that's what they are looking for in a religion they'll be as happy as little mud ducks.
.

I've read the Book of Mormon numerous times and I've never seen any precedent for the massacre of women and children. Where in the Book of Mormon does anyone support the killing of Women and children?

It's been a long time since I've read it, and can't quote chapter and verse, but I believe there was an incident where women and children were killed. I recall the discussion in seminary, where it was explained that they had to be killed because they would have starved to death after the men were killed anyway.

Now the "skin of blackness" is mentioned but not to promote the horrific treatment or enslavement of people with darker skin. You''ll find that was encouraged and supported by the mainstream christian traditions.

Agreed, but that's not what we were talking about. The Book of Mormon supports the idea of dark skin being a curse, pure and simple.
You must be mixing up the Book of Mormon with the Old Testament--that's where you'll find precedent for killing women and children and the servitute of a particular race.

You must be mixing me up with Joseph Smith. He found the precedents for the Book of Mormon in the Bible. I'm talking about the Book of Mormon.

[_guy sajer]

Good for you. If they read the book, they will readily understand the precedent for massacre of women and children and the curse of black skin, and if that's what they are looking for in a religion they'll be as happy as little mud ducks.
.

I've read the Book of Mormon numerous times and I've never seen any precedent for the massacre of women and children. Where in the Book of Mormon does anyone support the killing of Women and children?

It's been a long time since I've read it, and can't quote chapter and verse, but I believe there was an incident where women and children were killed. I recall the discussion in seminary, where it was explained that they had to be killed because they would have starved to death after the men were killed anyway.

Now the "skin of blackness" is mentioned but not to promote the horrific treatment or enslavement of people with darker skin. You''ll find that was encouraged and supported by the mainstream christian traditions.

Agreed, but that's not what we were talking about. The Book of Mormon supports the idea of dark skin being a curse, pure and simple.
You must be mixing up the Book of Mormon with the Old Testament--that's where you'll find precedent for killing women and children and the servitute of a particular race.

You must be mixing me up with Joseph Smith. He found the precedents for the Book of Mormon in the Bible. I'm talking about the Book of Mormon.

Well, Jesus killed tens of thousands in a variety of violent ways as a prelude to his visit in 3rd Nephi. One infers from this account that Jesus endorses murder as remedy for lack of belief, or for other "sins." Read through the relevant verses in 3rd Nephi, Jesus takes the credit for destroying a number of cities and "all the inhabitants therein" via earthquake, flood, fire, being buried in the sea or by earth. Yes, he even killed the innocent, little ones. Even if we concede the "guilt" of their parents, Jesus was not above holding them accountable for their parents' sins. Apparently something the perpetrators of the MMM took to heart-maybe they read 3rd Nephi for inspiration.

Compare Jesus' wanton, remorseless killing of innocents with his crying over the children during his visit and his "woe be unto anyone who harms a child" speechifying later in the same book. Apparently, Jesus wants to reserve the killing of innocents for himself.

It also raises the question as to whether disbelief merits death. I doubt too many of the rank and file actually believe this, but there it is, enshrined in the "most correct book" on earth. The Book of Mormon is as morally repulsive in this regard as the incredibly morally repulsive Old Testament and morally repulsive "Left Behind" garbage of the Evangelicals.

Let's also not forget the summary executions carried out by Captain Moroni of those who refused to take up the standard of liberty. Yes another lesson on morality by the "most correct book" on earth.

Is the murder on non-believers and those showing insufficient patriotism one of the "higher laws" that Jesus will restore during the Millennium?

[_TAK]

ouch..

[_silentkid]

If one sees college as a time of growth, experimentation, learning about oneself, assessing alternative points of view, associating with diverse people from diverse backgrounds, and learning to think critically about ALL things, I would strongly discourage them from attending BYU. If you think that life offers multiple paths to knowledge, wisdom, "truth," and that life is about choosing one's own path and learning about oneself in the process. If you see life as a journey rather than a destination, then by all means DO NOT go to BYU.

Great post, Guy. I especially like the part that I pasted above. I feel like I received an excellent education at BYU but my social life suffered. Even as an active Mormon, I never really fit in with Mormon social scene. I hated FHE activities and the like. Dating was ridiculous. The constant "games" made me feel like I was back in junior high. The pressure to serve a mission was intense. Certain church callings were seen as social status.

It wasn't until part way through my master's program that I had my paradigm shift and decided that Mormonism wasn't for me. That's when things got really difficult. If anyone is planning on going to BYU for post-graduate work and is not married...good luck. There was absolutely no social life for single grad students. My friend is working on his PhD at UNLV and every Friday, he and the other grad students and professors in his department get together at a local pub and hang out (I've heard that this is common at many universities). My friend doesn't drink, but he enjoys the socialization. There was nothing like this in my department at BYU. Sure, I got a degree. But because I went to BYU, I feel like I missed out on those college-life experiences.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Well, Jesus killed tens of thousands in a variety of violent ways as a prelude to his visit in 3rd Nephi. One infers from this account that Jesus endorses murder as remedy for lack of belief, or for other "sins." Read through the relevant verses in 3rd Nephi, Jesus takes the credit for destroying a number of cities and "all the inhabitants therein" via earthquake, flood, fire, being buried in the sea or by earth. Yes, he even killed the innocent, little ones. Even if we concede the "guilt" of their parents, Jesus was not above holding them accountable for their parents' sins. Apparently something the perpetrators of the MMM took to heart-maybe they read 3rd Nephi for inspiration.

Good point, but I'm trying to remember something more specific about killing the wives and children of men killed in battle. Hopefully, someone will post it; if not, I will concede the point because the last thing I want to do is go reading the Book of Mormon to look for it.

Compare Jesus' wanton, remorseless killing of innocents with his crying over the children during his visit and his "woe be unto anyone who harms a child" speechifying later in the same book. Apparently, Jesus wants to reserve the killing of innocents for himself.

It also raises the question as to whether disbelief merits death. I doubt too many of the rank and file actually believe this, but there it is, enshrined in the "most correct book" on earth. The Book of Mormon is as morally repulsive in this regard as the incredibly morally repulsive Old Testament and morally repulsive "Left Behind" garbage of the Evangelicals.

Let's also not forget the summary executions carried out by Captain Moroni of those who refused to take up the standard of liberty. Yes another lesson on morality by the "most correct book" on earth.

Is the murder on non-believers and those showing insufficient patriotism one of the "higher laws" that Jesus will restore during the Millennium?

My patriarchal blessing says I'll live to see the destroying angels striking down the nations of the earth, so I'll let you know how it goes, and it won't be long because I'm getting pretty old.

in my opinion, Joseph Smith' restoration kept practically all the bad aspects of Christianity and only added nutty stuff, no improvements to speak of.

[_barrelomonkeys]

My friend is working on his PhD at UNLV and every Friday, he and the other grad students and professors in his department get together at a local pub and hang out (I've heard that this is common at many universities). My friend doesn't drink, but he enjoys the socialization. There was nothing like this in my department at BYU. Sure, I got a degree. But because I went to BYU, I feel like I missed out on those college-life experiences.

I socialized with a quite a few of my professors. I took honors courses (I know that is really shocking) and we had very small classes in Philosophy and Political Science. It was often that we'd all go hang out after night classes or on the weekends. One of my philosophy professors (I took Existentialism from him and he gave me an A I'm pretty sure because I was young and hot, there's no other way to explain it) met a group of us every week at a pizza parlor.

[_harmony]

My friend is working on his PhD at UNLV and every Friday, he and the other grad students and professors in his department get together at a local pub and hang out (I've heard that this is common at many universities). My friend doesn't drink, but he enjoys the socialization. There was nothing like this in my department at BYU. Sure, I got a degree. But because I went to BYU, I feel like I missed out on those college-life experiences.

I socialized with a quite a few of my professors. I took honors courses (I know that is really shocking) and we had very small classes in Philosophy and Political Science. It was often that we'd all go hang out after night classes or on the weekends. One of my philosophy professors (I took Existentialism from him and he gave me an A I'm pretty sure because I was young and hot, there's no other way to explain it) met a group of us every week at a pizza parlor.

When I went back to school, I was neither young (43) nor hot (I hadn't yet hit menopause at that point). What I was, was funny. I'd sit in the HUB and before I could finish lunch, my table was full of laughing flirting young men and women. Pizza Hut was a favorite haunt (I was there too, for my study group... I swear!) College in one's early to mid 40's is a bit different than college in one's early 20's.