truth dancer wrote:I find the very idea of an Abrahamic test completely odd.
We have a man who was willing to kill his son so he could gain a reward in heaven.
Personally, I think Abraham failed the test.
I think to pass the test Abraham would have had to say something like.... "No God. I will not kill my child. I will sacrifice my place in heaven so my son can live. (Not to mention obey the commandment not to kill)."
I can't figure out why Abraham is held out to be such a wonderful man because he was willing to kill his son.
We hear of men giving their wives to Joseph Smith as an "Abrahamic test."
Wouldn't passing the test be more like... "No Joseph, I will not give my wife to you. I love her and have promised to be her husband. I would rather die than give her to another."
The whole Abrahamic test thing gets me dizzy!
~dancer~
The idea of tests like this are really a testy testing test of my own faith.
A Light in the Darkness wrote:Are you a mother truthdancer? Have you ever expected your children to trust your judgment without understanding how you came to that judgment? Assuming the answer is yes, do you think you were justified in doing this? Assuming the answer is yes, why were you justfied?
Hi Light, I think I understand your question:
The difference is that TD or anyone else would not require her son to murder one of their own children. If my dad told me to murder one of my sons I'd have him picked up.
Abraham (and maybe God) defined it as "sacrifice".
At that moment in time, Isaac may have described it differently - and I would have agreed with him.
A Light in the Darkness wrote:Are you a mother truthdancer? Have you ever expected your children to trust your judgment without understanding how you came to that judgment? Assuming the answer is yes, do you think you were justified in doing this? Assuming the answer is yes, why were you justfied?
Hi Light, I think I understand your question:
The difference is that TD or anyone else would not require her son to murder one of their own children. If my dad told me to murder one of my sons I'd have him picked up.
I guess you don't understand my question. At first, I'm just interested in the answer to this. Trying to anticipate an argument and reply to it is a bit premature at this point. I first have to have some sense of how truthdancer thinks authorities wanting trust (and eventually trust in authorities) is justified.
The Nehor wrote:I don't have much to say about Hagar and Ishmael but I doubt he threw them into the wilderness to die. I'm guessing Hagar screwed up somehow. I doubt Ishmael would have joined with Issac in burying their father if his father had tried to kill him as a child.
Indeed, if something unexplainable is wrong, blame it on the woman. Well done, Nehor! You're going to make a stellar LDS man!
Well the evidence seems to speak for itself. Who else would be responsible for the two of them getting lost in the wilderness? Ishmael? I don't think I have a previous record of blaming women for everything and I've been on here a long time.
You should really read the account, they were cast out into the wilderness by Abraham, they didn't just wander off.
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
God told him to do it.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
Yeah, God told Abraham to give a woman and his child by her some bread and water and send her off into the wilderness. Nice one, God.
The Dude is right. The God of the Old Testament really is a jackass.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Blixa wrote:I never hear the phrase "Abrahamic test" without being reminded of Nicolas Ray's little-seen 1956 masterpiece, Bigger Than Life, a film which uses "roid rage" as a metaphor for patriarchal awfulness.
James Mason plays a mild-mannered schoolteacher who is treated with the then-experimental hormone, cortisone, for a life-threatening illness. He not only recovers, but finds himself increasing happy, fit, full of energy, smarter, why nearly super human...and thus, the cortisone abuse begins.
One of the symptoms of his manic rage is his increasing punishment of his young son for minor infractions. Finally he decides that since his son is unworthy of such a powerful father, he should be done away with. He orders his wife to bring him a kitchen knife, grabs his Bible and starts yelling at the kid about Abraham and Isaac. Desperate to stay his hand, his wife tries to remind him that God stepped in and saved Isaac.
"GOD WAS WRONG!" he roars.
Going to rent it! Blixa, your new avatar rocks!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blixa wrote:I never hear the phrase "Abrahamic test" without being reminded of Nicolas Ray's little-seen 1956 masterpiece, Bigger Than Life, a film which uses "roid rage" as a metaphor for patriarchal awfulness.
James Mason plays a mild-mannered schoolteacher who is treated with the then-experimental hormone, cortisone, for a life-threatening illness. He not only recovers, but finds himself increasing happy, fit, full of energy, smarter, why nearly super human...and thus, the cortisone abuse begins.
One of the symptoms of his manic rage is his increasing punishment of his young son for minor infractions. Finally he decides that since his son is unworthy of such a powerful father, he should be done away with. He orders his wife to bring him a kitchen knife, grabs his Bible and starts yelling at the kid about Abraham and Isaac. Desperate to stay his hand, his wife tries to remind him that God stepped in and saved Isaac.
"GOD WAS WRONG!" he roars.
Going to rent it!
Unfortunately, it may be very hard to find. Last I knew it wasn't on DVD or maybe even video except in Europe. I had to wait until TCM showed it. I'd wanted to see it for years. It's very melodramatic and excessive, but that's in keeping with the mania its representing---read the Senses of Cinema essay I linked to, its very informative
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
A Light in the Darkness wrote:Are you a mother truthdancer? Have you ever expected your children to trust your judgment without understanding how you came to that judgment? Assuming the answer is yes, do you think you were justified in doing this? Assuming the answer is yes, why were you justfied?
Hi Light, I think I understand your question:
The difference is that TD or anyone else would not require her son to murder one of their own children. If my dad told me to murder one of my sons I'd have him picked up.
I guess you don't understand my question. At first, I'm just interested in the answer to this. Trying to anticipate an argument and reply to it is a bit premature at this point. I first have to have some sense of how truthdancer thinks authorities wanting trust (and eventually trust in authorities) is justified.
I'm getting the sense that you are a big believer in blind obedience.
Here's a question for you (until TD gets back), if you don't mind:
Can you think of any instances, aside from scripture, in the past 300 years, say, where unquestioning obedience to God's orders to kill turned out well? Seems like when it's Andrea Yates, or the Lafferty brothers, or 911, we can easily be objective enough to see it is nothing to do with God and everything to do with unstable or criminal personalities. Yet, you feel driven to defend Abraham on principle because ... why, exactly?