Abrahamic Tests.... Nonsense!

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_A Light in the Darkness
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Post by _A Light in the Darkness »

You ask me a question to which you expected a paticular response, I did not agree and so I am lying? Wow!


I don't think you are lying. I do not think you have thought through what you are saying. I doubt, for instance, that a two year old is capable of understanding why his diet should be a certain way and I also doubt you expected your two year old to follow some dietary guidelines of yours. At this point, you might say, "But all I said is I explained my reasons, not that I expected my children to always understand them." Then:

Children simply do not have the capacity to understand why we ask them to do certain things.

I am not saying children always understand. I'm saying I do my best to explain my reasons and would never EVER ask them to engage in behavior which they thought was morally or ethically wrong.


It does no good to explain your reasons to someone if they do not minimally understand the reasons. At that point, your reasoning is just gibberish that says, "I have my reasons." That's what "humoring" a person means.

Further I bet you would ask your children to do things that violate their sense of right and wrong if their sense of right and wrong sufficiently differed from your moral knowledge. If their sense of right and wrong demanded them persecute homosexuals, I would expect you to still expect them to not do it per your dictates. If not, then my questioning revealed a more fundamental level of disagreement than I anticipated.

Not always but often. And in my opinion, it is ALWAYS unreasonable to think God would command humans to harm others to prove obedience or to get a special reward.


When you presuppose your answer, it shouldn't be shocking to find out you have that answer. But I don't think the answer here is as simple as "prove obedience" anyway; at least if you regard obedience and trust to be distinct concepts.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

It does no good to explain your reasons to someone if they do not minimally understand the reasons. At that point, your reasoning is just gibberish that says, "I have my reasons." That's what "humoring" a person means.


I know what "humoring" a child means and I have never done it. I have never said, "obey me...I have my reasons" or words to that effect.

If their sense of right and wrong demanded them persecute homosexuals, I would expect you to still expect them to not do it per your dictates.


Nope. I would not give my children dictates to obey.

This whole idea of "obedience" just doesn't sit well with me. I have never used the term with my children in relationship to my suggestions. I have used the word regarding rules and laws ...(if you don't obey the speed limit you will get a ticket), helping them to understand the consequences of behavior but that is about it.

If not, then my questioning revealed a more fundamental level of disagreement than I anticipated.


I guess so.

:-)

Back to the point...

How do you rationalize/justify Abraham knowing the "God said" excuse is used all the time by folks hurting each other the world over? Why is OK for Abraham to agree to kill his son so he can gain a reward but not for everyone else who kills in the name of God?

Why do YOU think Abraham was great for agreeing to kill his son?

If your bishop agreed to kill his son because God told him to would you be OK with that?

I mean most people think guys like this should be in prison... ya know? ;-) But Abraham gets a free pass... (sigh).

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Jason, yew said:
The idea of tests like this are really a testy testing test of my own faith.



"Did-ja pass the 'testy-testing-test'? What mark?" Warm regards, Roger
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

ozemc wrote:You should really read the account, they were cast out into the wilderness by Abraham, they didn't just wander off.

Genesis 21:14 (http://bibleresources.Bible.com/passage ... version1=9)

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

God told him to do it.


True, but I always had a sneaking suspician this passage was wrong. Abraham was rich. Ishmael doesn't seem like a pauper later on. He must have got something.

Personally, I think the passage was added later by Israelites to further distance themselves and to make Father Abraham appear to hate the Ishmaelites to justify their own hate. I have nothing to back this up though.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Jason, yew said:
The idea of tests like this are really a testy testing test of my own faith.



"Did-ja pass the 'testy-testing-test'?



It is still in process.


What mark?"


It depends on ones point of view. Some may say F, some may say A, most would say C and call me lukewarm, hypocrite, phoney.
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Jason, yew said:
The idea of tests like this are really a testy testing test of my own faith.



"Did-ja pass the 'testy-testing-test'?



It is still in process.


What mark?"


It depends on ones point of view. Some may say F, some may say A, most would say C and call me lukewarm, hypocrite, phoney.


Not everyone would say that, though.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Maxrep
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Post by _Maxrep »

The Nehor wrote: he was needed on the other side of the veil.



My wifes father expired early from cancer. He too was needed "On the other side of the veil"........ or so they said. I am surprised that god is still understaffed after thousands of years!
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Jas, i'm with Blixa, she said:

Not everyone would say that, though.


Yer A-OK with me Bro... Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Nehor, you said:

Personally, I think the passage was added later by Israelites to further distance themselves and to make Father Abraham appear to hate the Ishmaelites to justify their own hate.


Interesting... Do You think (many:) other things have been added by other folks? If so??? What about the "Father Abraham" concept?? Warm regards, Roger
_ozemc
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Post by _ozemc »

The Nehor wrote:
ozemc wrote:You should really read the account, they were cast out into the wilderness by Abraham, they didn't just wander off.

Genesis 21:14 (http://bibleresources.Bible.com/passage ... version1=9)

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

God told him to do it.


True, but I always had a sneaking suspician this passage was wrong. Abraham was rich. Ishmael doesn't seem like a pauper later on. He must have got something.

Personally, I think the passage was added later by Israelites to further distance themselves and to make Father Abraham appear to hate the Ishmaelites to justify their own hate. I have nothing to back this up though.


Well, to be quite honest, I think a lot of the Old Testament, and probably some of the New as well, was added to embellish the story.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk

Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
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