incorrigable private evidence

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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

Gadianton wrote:Chalmers's motivation to make his conceivability argument comes from some kind of incorrigable introspection. But
Now Tarski, stay with me, I know this is a long post. This has been an important issue for me long before I ever read Dennett. Many skeptics are content with believing that a Mormon testimony, a burning in the bosom, or whatever, is something like seeing a mirage or duping ourselves into a hallucination. The experience happens, but it doesn't refer to anything significant. But that's not good enough for me. When I was missionary, I not only had a hard time believing that Elder Green's experience while reading and praying about the Book of Mormon tells us anything about his knowledge, but I couldn't believe in 98 percent of the cases that anyone was having testimony experiences at all. I think something "Orwellian" was going on as soon as those guys manned the pulpit, or possibly even during those times where they were supposidly feeling spiritual. Most of the time, I don't think it's a case that by stressing over their testimony, Elders would trigger the hallucination, but rather, given enough time doing what BKP tells us to do, and bear what we don't have, our psychological consciousness constructs a narrative that we might thoroughly believe yet it never had anything to do with actual experience! I'm not sure if I'm thoroughly convinced by Dennett, there are other strong positions in phil mind worth considering, but one thing is for sure, you can call me a "testimony experience eliminativist". I don't just doubt the testimony's legitimacy, I doubt that warm fuzzies of any significance even happen most of the time or even make any sense.

Like a false memory syndrome! I have thought this too and I think you are onto something. Not only is the mystical experience not veridical, it never really happened! It is possible however, that a specific time that one was feeling a bit emotional or good about the church may be transformed in the narrative into the "testimony event" even though at the time the person never thought of it that way.

As far as Dennett is concerned I think his arguments are powerful. He might not be right in the long run but we has certainly given a challenge that must be taken seriously. (I had to read that CE book like three times before my assurity in the reality of qualia begain to be broken down).
I don't think Chalmer's has saved qualia but perhaps someone will. Perhaps it will never be fully resolved.
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Frankly, I find the proposition that we're not conscious slightly absurd.

Surely there are many ways to define consciousness, but doesn't the fact that we have the awareness to even question such things as consciousness indicate that we are, indeed, conscious? Consciousness doesn't merely consist of our awareness and ability to observe; it's the process by which we understand the things we observe with our senses. We're able to process data, make choices, reason (well, some of us, anyway)... aren't those things de facto evidence of consciousness?

To me, there is ample evidence of consciousness in the fact that I have, like most adults, been unconscious a time or two (or many more in my case). I happened to notice a distinct difference between the two!

in my opinion, there is observable evidence for consciousness. Not so for testimonies. Testimonies fall under the category of emotion and are emotionally triggered. There's no observable evidence for a spiritual witness.

I'm no philosopher, not that I need to point that out, but it is my opinion that someone who believes humans are indeed conscious but also doubts the veracity of Mormon testimonies is not a hypocrite, or even inconsistent or contradictory.

KA
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

DonBradley wrote:Hi Tarski,



I've long been interested in philosophy, but with time that interest fades. If the best academic philosophy can do is lead us to question the very notions on which our functioning depends--such as truth, external reality, causation, and consciousness, what's the point? And what advantage would a philosopher have over a Sophist?

Don

It depends on what you mean by consciousness. If you suspect that a robot could never be conscious (without somehow gaining some new thing along the way to complexity) then you need to read Dennett.
I am not doubting that we have brains that function and guide our behavior and speech acts. And by awareness do you simply mean our ability to navigate the world and talk about it?

Another example, is the question of "Mary's room"

Mary is a brilliant scientist who is, for whatever reason, forced to investigate the world from a black and white room via a black and white television monitor. She specializes in the neurophysiology of vision and acquires, let us suppose, all the physical information there is to obtain about what goes on when we see ripe tomatoes, or the sky, and use terms like ‘red’, ‘blue’, and so on. She discovers, for example, just which wavelength combinations from the sky stimulate the retina, and exactly how this produces via the central nervous system the contraction of the vocal chords and expulsion of air from the lungs that results in the uttering of the sentence ‘The sky is blue’. [...] What will happen when Mary is released from her black and white room or is given a color television monitor? Will she learn anything or not? [1]


If she really really knows every relevant physical fact about the color situation and her own brain then Dennett claims she will learn nothing.

I understand your objection. I thought that Dennett was nuts for a long time. I read his book three times just becuase it had so many cool ideas and anectdotes about brain function in it. But even after the first or second reading, I still felt certain that he was denying the existence of something that I took to be obvious.
The Book: http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 0316180661
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

KimberlyAnn wrote:Frankly, I find the proposition that we're not conscious slightly absurd.

At first blush and even at second blush but.....

Surely there are many ways to define consciousness, but doesn't the fact that we have the awareness to even question such things as consciousness indicate that we are, indeed, conscious? Consciousness doesn't merely consist of our awareness and ability to observe; it's the process by which we understand the things we observe with our senses. We're able to process data, make choices, reason (well, some of us, anyway)... aren't those things de facto evidence of consciousness? KA
It is evidence that we are well constucted machines that process information. Is that all there is to what we intuit as consciousness?
Read the Mary's room thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_room


the book
http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 0316180661
Last edited by W3C [Validator] on Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Tarski wrote:
KimberlyAnn wrote:Frankly, I find the proposition that we're not conscious slightly absurd.

At first blush and even at second blush but.....

Surely there are many ways to define consciousness, but doesn't the fact that we have the awareness to even question such things as consciousness indicate that we are, indeed, conscious? Consciousness doesn't merely consist of our awareness and ability to observe; it's the process by which we understand the things we observe with our senses. We're able to process data, make choices, reason (well, some of us, anyway)... aren't those things de facto evidence of consciousness? KA
It is evidence that we are well constucted machines that process information. Is that all there is to what we intuit as consciousness?
Read the Mary's room thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_room


the book
http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 0316180661


I read the article on Mary's room. Here's a better link to it on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%27s_room

I have to disagree with Dennett. Mary does learn something new about color when going outside of her room for the first time. What is color except that we can see it? Mary couldn't have possibly known all there is to know about color while sitting in a black and white room.

KA
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

KimberlyAnn wrote:
Tarski wrote:
KimberlyAnn wrote:Frankly, I find the proposition that we're not conscious slightly absurd.

At first blush and even at second blush but.....

Surely there are many ways to define consciousness, but doesn't the fact that we have the awareness to even question such things as consciousness indicate that we are, indeed, conscious? Consciousness doesn't merely consist of our awareness and ability to observe; it's the process by which we understand the things we observe with our senses. We're able to process data, make choices, reason (well, some of us, anyway)... aren't those things de facto evidence of consciousness? KA
It is evidence that we are well constucted machines that process information. Is that all there is to what we intuit as consciousness?
Read the Mary's room thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_room


the book
http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Exp ... 0316180661


I read the article on Mary's room. Here's a better link to it on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%27s_room

I have to disagree with Dennett. Mary does learn something new about color when going outside of her room for the first time. What is color except that we can see it? Mary couldn't have possibly known all there is to know about color while sitting in a black and white room.

KA

Why not if she knows all there is to know about how eyes and brain work down to the tiniest detail (incuding here reactions when so does see color)?
by the way, no one believes Dennett is right before reading his arguments in great detail. It defies intuition!

Read "Consciousness Explained" for some great fun.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Well... there's something to chew on (the whole thread).

I haven't given this much thought, but my instinct is to answer the question at hand (are we hypocrites) with a resounding ‘no’ for one simple reason: time. We are conscious for long periods of time, and the only lapses in our consciousness can be measured in time. Those lapses can also be explained and verified.

The testimony thing is a fleeting, subjecctive, singular experience that often (I believe) gets reworked in the telling and recalling. That it might even be invented is entirely possible/probable. It’s just a subset or subroutine of our consciousness, and helps validate the power of our consciousness, but says nothing about the authenticity of the purported source of that experience.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Tarski wrote:Why not if she knows all there is to know about how eyes and brain work down to the tiniest detail (incuding here reactions when so does see color)?
by the way, no one believes Dennett is right before reading his arguments in great detail. It defies intuition!

Read "Consciousness Explained" for some great fun.


She can't know all there is to know about color without experiencing it.

There are some things in life about which it's impossible to know everything without actual experience. Take sex for example. A virgin could know every detail about sex, how it works, positions, what happens in the brain during sex, the technicalities of an orgasm, and be given every descriptor possible of what it feels like in advance, but until she actually engages in sexual intercourse herself, I posit she cannot know everything about sex, just like Mary cannot know everything about color without experiencing it herself!

I may check out Dennett's book. I'm considering boycotting him because he's a Bright. ;)

KA
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

KimberlyAnn wrote: I may check out Dennett's book. I'm considering boycotting him because he's a Bright. ;)

KA


Hey! I registered as a Bright (despite the fact that I, too, do not like the name). Does that mean you're going to boycott me?

That won't get you out of getting your butt kicked at Risk, you know.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Gadianton
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Post by _Gadianton »

It is possible however, that a specific time that one was feeling a bit emotional or good about the church may be transformed in the narrative into the "testimony event" even though at the time the person never thought of it that way.


Yes. Also, i was way dog tired last night so i wasn't clear on a lot of things. Dennett's project to "Quine Qualia" goes for the most real 'seeming' experiences, seeing colors, taste etc. His inspiration was Rorty's suggestion that a personal experience is meaningless to talk about once we accept the interpretation of outside observers over and above first-person reports - hence "heterophenomenology". Most people would agree that we can question first person reports, until it comes to the elusive qualia, and then we throw up a brick wall.

Let me take a related claim to the LDS testimony, the "sensus divinitatus". The belief that people have an inborn knowledge of deity. Now, the difference between the two is that the so called "God-sense" to my knowledge doesn't require a "what-it's-like" experience. It's epistemically basic like memory, but it's not clearly related to qualia. Philosophers have no problem laughing that one out of court - suggesting a priori knowledge of the great pumpkin and insist there's a publically available explanation. Now shift slightly to the LDS testimony, and you get knowledge+phenomenal experience. If we can question someones incorrigable knowledge of God's existence or the existence of the Great Pumpkin, why couldn't we question the supposed "good feelings" which add a phenomenal dimension to this knowledge proposition? It seems to me skeptics have no problem being eliminativists toward the "sensus divinitatus" and demand public evidence such as neurological structures in the brain that could capacitate the god-knowledge in the same way we can point to receptors for vision and structures for memory. But for some reason, they are more inclined to take at face value a burning in the bosom, or some other experiential happening, and then write it off as hallucination. Certainly, there are brain experiments that show specific activities for "spiritual experiences", but these kinds of feelings aren't exclusive to belief and they don't explain the LDS testimony which is more nuanced. Like I said, I'll keep the 2% open for the guy who really does go into a tent with contraband and come out with visions of eternity.

But just like incorrigable "knowledge" of God on grounds of the divine sense can be questioned, and I think, with enough scrutiny and examination of the person's life, shown to be confused and the "belief" not directed toward anything exclusively like a Supreme Being, the phenomenal "testimony" can in most cases be demonstrated as confused and lacking any true "what-it's-like" experience. Just as we may believe there is knowledge of some things but draw battle lines against propositions like the divine sense, I think we can believe there might be qualia but draw battle lines and not just take experiential reports at face value. In other words, I haven't decide whether there is a what-it's-like experience for "red" but I have decided, like the God sense, there is not something that it's like to have a testiphony. There are those rare birds with delusions and hallucinations.

It doesn't take a lot of interrogation to cast doubt on the testimony. It's a burning in the bosom, whether you had one or not, but if not and you can't own up, then it's a culmination of life experiences. Or it could be general good feelings, no feelings at all that were made up into something, or possibly a flat out lie to fit in with the group. It could be a complex narrative that includes a little bit of this or that or a single experience that at the time seemed incorrigable, but doubted later. New member testimonies put the bishopric in panic mode cuz you never know what kind of off-the-wall revelations are going to come over the pulpit. Then again, some life-longs will get up for the ritualistic 20 minute travelog, the audience feels embarrassed, but to the person standing up there a real, incorrigable testimony is being offered in sincerity. So there's already heterophenomenology going on within TBMs themselves. In fact, some critics it seems to me, elevate the testimony far more than members do and are willing to give it hallucinatory status. A testimony - every TBM experiences one, but there is no one can really say what-it's like - ah salt. Dennett's reasoning is similar for less controverial experience, like the taste of salt, it just takes weightier experimental evidence to make the points.

As far as Dennett is concerned I think his arguments are powerful. He might not be right in the long run but we has certainly given a challenge that must be taken seriously. (I had to read that CE book like three times before my assurity in the reality of qualia begain to be broken down).
I don't think Chalmer's has saved qualia but perhaps someone will. Perhaps it will never be fully resolved.


Dennett I'll admit has influnced me more than any other in that genre. He and Chalmers are two of the most famous, but also controversial, and there are a number of in between positions that I think are sensible. Chalmers rejects physicalism and Dennett rejects qualia. But there are good theories too which reduce qualia. And there is just as much mind-bending in the fight over First Order Theories and Higher Order Theories as you encounter in Dennett's book.
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