Does the teaching method in LDS Primary equal brainwashing?

[_Yoda]

Some comments:

1. Brainwashing cannot be done to a child. Why? Because brainwashing(also known as thought reform or [b]re-education[b]) consists of any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person against his will, usually beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. (from Wiki)

Children have no prior beliefs. Primary teaches; it does not re-teach.

2. A primary segment of brainwashing is the "against his will" part. Primary never teaches anyone "against their will". Children are incapable of having "will" in this sense and legally have no standing, thus no "will". Their parents are the ones with "will" and they choose to put their kids in the seats in the Primary room.

3. The APA has neither accepted nor rejected the concept.

THANK YOU, HARMONY!!!!

:)

[_Yoda]

1. Brainwashing cannot be done to a child. Why? Because brainwashing(also known as thought reform or [b]re-education[b]) consists of any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person against his will, usually beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. (from Wiki)

Children have no prior beliefs. Primary teaches; it does not re-teach.

Could indoctrination be the word used rather than brainwashing?

Yes, and I would agree with that term.

[_Yoda]

I would like to take a moment during this thread to thank PP for starting a very thought-provoking discussion.

See, sweetie? You really CAN start a discussion that forwards your views without peppering people with insults.

Great thread!

:)

[_harmony]

1. Brainwashing cannot be done to a child. Why? Because brainwashing(also known as thought reform or [b]re-education[b]) consists of any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person against his will, usually beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. (from Wiki)

Children have no prior beliefs. Primary teaches; it does not re-teach.

Could indoctrination be the word used rather than brainwashing?

No. Indoctrination is again too strong a concept.

Primary is about teaching children a set of beliefs, and the parents have made the choice for their children that they be involved. Just because you (or Tarski or anyone else) objects to what is taught, says it's not true, etc., that has no bearing on a parent's right to choose what her child is taught and by whom. We as parents are not required to ask anyone else about efficacy of the decisions we make when we raise our children. Our rights as parents are protected by law. In other countries, maybe the government and/or the church steps in and makes that choice for the parents, but here, we're allowed to make family decisions without interference from anyone, including ex-Mormons.

PP may rant all he wants, but Primary is not brainwashing and it's not indoctrination. It's simply parents teaching their children what they believe and it's legal and it's relatively healthy. If anyone wants to complain about Primary, complain to your parents, not the church.

Edited to finish my thought (hit the submit button too soon): if you're going to call Primary indoctrination, then you're going to have to call any teaching environment indoctrination. And I don't agree with that.

[_Who Knows]

No. Indoctrination is again too strong a concept.

Primary is about teaching children a set of beliefs, and the parents have made the choice for their children that they be involved. Just because you (or Tarski or anyone else) objects to what is taught, says it's not true, etc., that has no bearing on a parent's right to choose what her child is taught and by whom. We as parents are not required to ask anyone else about efficacy of the decisions we make when we raise our children. Our rights as parents are protected by law. In other countries, maybe the government and/or the church steps in and makes that choice for the parents, but here, we're allowed to make family decisions without interference from anyone, including ex-Mormons.

PP may rant all he wants, but Primary is not brainwashing and it's not indoctrination. It's simply parents teaching their children what they believe and it's legal and it's relatively healthy. If anyone wants to complain about Primary, complain to your parents, not the church.

That's close to the silliest argument I've ever heard.

The Jamestown cult wasn't brainwashing kids, because the parents chose to take their kids there. If anyone wants to complain, they should complain to the parents, not the jamestown cult leaders.

Just because the parents choose to raise their kids that way, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether the church is brainwashing children (yes, i'm still using that term, as it can have a broad meaning encompassing 'mind control').

[_Blixa]

A couple of comments and questions:

1) is that picture PP posted of a flooded primary classroom? Is that water on the floor or just a supernaturally shiny wax?

2) I don't know what Primary is like now, but way back in my day it was the least "religiousy" of the meetings. A lot of it was games and crafts that had maybe a loose connection to something Biblical or BoM-y and lots of singing. Any lessons were very basic and general (golden rule type things), with the exception of stressing the idea of tithing and making a tithing bank out of a milk cartoon and flour playdough. I remember shocking the primary teacher by telling her I didn't need to make one since I didn't pay tithing. I argued the point too. Afterall, I didn't earn any money, and tithing was all about paying on money earned, wasn't it?

3) Thank god I never heard "Follow the Prophet." Liz, I have to say the full verse version is even worse in my book---especially that last verse about watching the news to see confusion sans prophetic counsel...

4) The whispered tesitmonies of children who can't comprehend the idea of belief, truth, or anything else, is obviously disturbing and meant to inculcate a "knowledge" that the "church is true" as second nature. But much of the content and form of primary and sunday school is probably not that different from many church's instruction of children.

[_harmony]

No. Indoctrination is again too strong a concept.

Primary is about teaching children a set of beliefs, and the parents have made the choice for their children that they be involved. Just because you (or Tarski or anyone else) objects to what is taught, says it's not true, etc., that has no bearing on a parent's right to choose what her child is taught and by whom. We as parents are not required to ask anyone else about efficacy of the decisions we make when we raise our children. Our rights as parents are protected by law. In other countries, maybe the government and/or the church steps in and makes that choice for the parents, but here, we're allowed to make family decisions without interference from anyone, including ex-Mormons.

PP may rant all he wants, but Primary is not brainwashing and it's not indoctrination. It's simply parents teaching their children what they believe and it's legal and it's relatively healthy. If anyone wants to complain about Primary, complain to your parents, not the church.

That's close to the silliest argument I've ever heard.

The Jamestown cult wasn't brainwashing kids, because the parents chose to take their kids there. If anyone wants to complain, they should complain to the parents, not the jamestown cult leaders.

Just because the parents choose to raise their kids that way, has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether the church is brainwashing children (yes, I'm still using that term, as it can have a broad meaning encompassing 'mind control').

Your basic premise is incorrect, Who Knows. If you don't accept that, it's not my fault.

How much plainer do I have to say it? Only adults can be brainwashed! Let me see if I can spell it out any plainer: children cannot be brainwashed. There. Is that understandable? Children cannot be brainwashed, because brainwashing is 1) RE education and 2) against one's will (children have no legal will).

Mind control of children is impossible, since children have no legal definition of will. You can have mind control of the parents, but not of the children. And if that's silly, don't blame me. Blame our founding fathers. (Children also have no legal rights in this country, but that's another thread.)

We complain repeatedly here about apologists who twist words andmake up definitions to suit themselves. Well, that's exactly what you're doing, Who Knows. Either work with the definition as it is, or get lumped into the Juliann camp.

Brainwashing is only possible for adults.

[_Polygamy Porter]

"follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way follow the prophet follow the prophet follow the prophet he knows the way"

How is this not brainwashing?

]


THis is a song I would be happy to do away with.

Staying true to your hypocritical ways I see...

[_Yoda]

This is sort of on topic. :)

Since the thread morphed into a discussion of hymns I thought I'd look at some online. I saw the Doxology listed

Praise God, from whom all blessings flow;
Praise him, all creatures here below;
Praise him above, ye heav’nly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Is this something sung in the LDS Church?

reference

This is sung every single Sunday at a Methodist Church.

I love this piece. It isn't in our hymnal, but I wish they would add it.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I'm not sure how this is considered "cult-like". They also hold up pictures of Jesus and other things pertaining to the Sharing Time lesson. It's simply a way to get the children involved with what is happening...a very common teaching technique. Obviously, if the lesson is about Joseph Smith or President Hinckley, then yes, these pictures will be utilized. However, most of the lessons in Sharing Time focus on simple principles of the gospel like baptism, acting like Jesus would act, being kind to one another, etc.

It is not cult like. It is called instruction and perhaps indoctrination. It is a choise to teach one's children what one believes. PP will leave that all to random chance for his kids.

We have finally uncovered the reason ol' Jason is afraid to leave the cult.

He is afraid that he could not raise children without religion. Open your mind man.

in my opinion, religion fosters bigotry, hate, and superiority complexes.