Politics, The Chosen Land, and Why we Fight

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_ktallamigo
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Re: Most TBM's I know are right wing nut jobs

Post by _ktallamigo »

barrelomonkeys wrote:
I think it's interesting you think you can know the "truth" about America by reading books that skew to the left. I've read every book listed there, and quite a few more by Chomsky, and probably have a different take on America than you.

I don't believe I can have the "truth" by reading only leftist literature. I believe the "truth" (although I find the idea suspect that there is a "truth") is somewhere in the middle. :)



America's record on foreign policy since WWII is well-documented, and can therefore be accepted as things that really happened, i.e., history.

I happen to think that much of it is wrong and immoral, and benefitting the elite ruling class. But that is my moral judgment.

Perhaps to some others - war, sanctions, torture, murder, coups, economic imperialism, assasinations, covert operations - are a good thing because they help keep America on top and the dollars rolling in.
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Some good news for us Americans....Bush's head political puppet master/hatchet man Karl Rove is jumping off the ship.....is anyone left besides Condi and Bush?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_barrelomonkeys
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Re: Most TBM's I know are right wing nut jobs

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

ktallamigo wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:
I think it's interesting you think you can know the "truth" about America by reading books that skew to the left. I've read every book listed there, and quite a few more by Chomsky, and probably have a different take on America than you.

I don't believe I can have the "truth" by reading only leftist literature. I believe the "truth" (although I find the idea suspect that there is a "truth") is somewhere in the middle. :)



America's record on foreign policy since WWII is well-documented, and can therefore be accepted as things that really happened, I.e., history.

I happen to think that much of it is wrong and immoral, and benefitting the elite ruling class. But that is my moral judgment.

Perhaps to some others - war, sanctions, torture, murder, coups, economic imperialism, assasinations, covert operations - are a good thing because they help keep America on top and the dollars rolling in.


Hi ktallamigo. :)

I can be alarmed at our collective history and the implications of that history. and yet not feel the need to run around screaming that the sky is falling.
_ktallamigo
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Post by _ktallamigo »

Bond...James Bond wrote:Some good news for us Americans....Bush's head political puppet master/hatchet man Karl Rove is jumping off the ship.....is anyone left besides Condi and Bush?


Unfortunately, the Prince of Darkness (Cheney) is still with us.


ktall
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Loquacious Lurker wrote:
Ray A wrote:I believe America is the greatest and most influential nation on earth, and no number of Benedict Arnolds will change my opinion.


No need for a Benedict Arnold, Ray. Just statistics.

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ats- ... 7515.story

The US ranks 42nd in the world in life expectancy, behind most of (godless) Europe, and many other countries. It has a higher infant mortality rate than almost all industrialized nations.

Believe whatever you like, in spite of the facts.


And just what do these facts imply? What do they mean? What is there relevance? At least a third of the American infant mortality rate is due to premature birth, and of the rest to birth defects. Further, the infant mortality rate continues to decline

http://www.slate.com/id/2161899/

http://www.cdc.gov/omhd/AMH/factsheets/infant.htm

Don Rickles one quipped to a lady in his audience (this is from a stand up routine he did in the sixties) "You gotta be a Jew lady you're the only one with a stole on and it's a hundred and five in here."

In a similar way, you can always pick out the real, committed liberal in any discussion. They're the ones with the incontextual facts, the meaningless and incontextual statistics, and the the deep fat fried history. They're the one's who have always substituted easy ideological platitudes and unquestioned shibboleths for serious critical thought.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

ktallamigo wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:Some good news for us Americans....Bush's head political puppet master/hatchet man Karl Rove is jumping off the ship.....is anyone left besides Condi and Bush?


Unfortunately, the Prince of Darkness (Cheney) is still with us.


ktall


At least he's doing us a favor by retiring to Wyoming rather than running for the Presidency in 2008 and embarrassing himself.....
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Personally, even if we were angels, I wouldn't want to live in anything remotely like a United Order. I enjoy economic freedom, and I don't believe in the type of radical economic equality the UO implies. I have no problem with a distribution of income and wealth, though I do have a problem if it results in overly wide disparities.


My meaning Guy, is that the United Order in a unforgiving desert in the context of pre-industrial age technology is a very different United Order than might exist under present conditions. The covenant would be the same, in that we would consider all of our property to be the Lord's and available at any time to do his work or support the poor, but the application might be very different. The almost military restrictions on personal freedom imposed at that time was, indeed, necessary for the naked survival of the Mormons in the Salk Lake Valley. The actual collectivization of personal property that occurred then is not something that would be necessary under modern conditions, though I can see why it would have been so under conditions prevailing then. Scarce resources, winter coming on, and no supermarket or CVS to run to to get what we need for the next couple of weeks.

If men were angels (or so fully influenced by the spirit of the Lord that they were the next best thing to them), I would have no problem with the United Order. Free agency is perhaps the cardinal, overarching principle within the Gospel system of doctrine and governance. We also understand the unalienable rights stated in the Declaration and codified in the Constitution as divine in origin.

The problem arises when people think they can create a United Order themselves, outside the governing influence of the Priesthood. Without any doubt, they would make a hash of it, and bring discredit upon the concept in so doing. Even the Israeli Kibbutz, the most successful collectivist society we know of, eventually came apart because of the truncation of human potential and growth this kind of culture inevitably produces in its members.

I don't know what the full United Order, flourishing in a modern, technologically advanced economy would look like, but I'm quite satisfied it would not look like the Nineteenth Century version, any more than New Testament Christianity looks like Mosaic religion. To Mormons, they are all on a continuum, of course, but crafted to the capacities and needs of different peoples.

No, the coming UO will not look exactly like modern capitalism. There will, however, be capitalism within it. Were this not so, it would be inevitably and unendingly poor and dependent, and that is not a part of the prophecies regarding it. There will be no rich and poor in Zion, which means both that there will be a "welfare" system there that sees to the needs of the poor, as well as work and opportunity for the poor (a situation that, paradoxically, is well nigh impossible without free markets and accumulation of capital). However, there being no rich and poor (a narrowing of the vast disparities we see in secular society) in no way implies a classless society. Nor does it even imply economic egalitarianism. Mormons scriptures say there will be no rich and no poor; they do not mention economic equality.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Re: Most TBM's I know are right wing nut jobs

Post by _Coggins7 »

ktallamigo wrote:
truth dancer wrote:I recently watched, Why we Fight, (thank you Beastie), and a few other documentaries about war and the United States, and I got to thinking.

It seems to me like America (The United States), is not really the Chosen Land it was/is supposed to be.

Do the leaders of the church still think America is a great nation, directed by Godad He inspired its leaders? Or, do they think it may be about ready to fall? (Where the constitution will hang by a thread and the Priesthood will save it)?

What do you all think about the current state of affairs... has democracy lost to capitalism?

Are the wealthy few, running the country?

Along these lines, I also reread an article by Nibley, Breakthroughs I Would Like to See, where he argues that the church must return to the Law of Consecration in order to prepare for Zion. He uses the D&C to support his understanding that this law is required by all Saints.

in my opinion, the church seems to be continually moving toward more power, money, eliticism, wealth, etc. etc. etc. My observation is that there is a move away from the idea of communal living. Is the Law of Consecration no longer taught as something that will exist? Is Nibley's interpretation of the D&C wrong?

Any thoughts?

~dancer~


Most Americans are blind to the truth about our country, just like TBM's are blind to the truth about the church. If a person cares about the truth, and really wants to know the truth no matter down what path it leads, the truth can be found. But once you go down that road you can't go back.

Now, just because a person knows and recognizes the truth about what America does in the world doesn't make that person a Benedict Arnold. It just opens their eyes to realities that most Americans don't know about - or don't want to know about. You can still love your country while it is imperfect. You love your country - so you hope it will progress and be the shining example to the world that you think it should be.

The truth is that the American government and its ruling class do a lot of harm throughout the world - for the benefit of the few. Our country is imperialistic, and is directly or indirectly responsible for much suffering and bloodshed. Knowing this does not make one a traitor, just sad.

Most of the TBM's I know are right-wing nut jobs who believe all the propaganda they get from FOX "news", Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. etc. They are sure that AMerica is the good guy, going throughout the world just trying to help, and always being so misunderstood. Trying to tell these kinds of people the truth about what AMerica really does is like trying to tell them the church isn't true. They simply won't believe it! Or, they become apologists.

In fact, it was just this kind of thing that made me question the church. If the brethren were really inspired, I thought, why were they so wrong about politics? Look at Ezra Taft Benson. My mother (TBM) says that George W. Bush will go down in history as one of the greatest presidents ever!!! My sister (TBM) and her whole family listen to Rush Limbaugh and believe that global warming is a conspiracy to keep people from believing that the SAvior is causing all the climate problems. Most of my friends and neighbors hate environmentalists, gays, liberals, feminists and intellectuals. They are all TBM's. It is so frustrating to talk to these good people - who are so unimformed.

The most eye-opening books I have read lately about America:

Democracy for the Few by Michael Parenti
Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky
Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII by William Blum
A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn

These books should be "must" reading for every American who really wants to know the truth.



Great. Now we've got our own resident Kos Kid at Mormondiscussions.com.

My stomach actually hurts reading this abyssal pap.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Ray A

Re: Cheaper with 3 Jobs

Post by _Ray A »

Miss Taken wrote:What I can't believe about Australia is the price of housing (though I have heard it is going up). An average house over here (UK) costs around £250,000. Not sure what that would be in dollars. That would buy a small, semi-detached 3 bedroom house on an ex council estate within a 50 mile radius of London. Crazy money.


That is crazy. That's about AUS$600,000. Depending on where you live in Oz, you can get a good sized four or five bedroom home, with swimming pool, in a good area, for that price. You can get a respectable three bedroom home with a big yard for around 127,000 pounds (don't have the pound money symbol on my keyboard).

by the way, Mary, I got your PM and will reply in detail later.
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Re: Cheaper with 3 Jobs

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Ray A wrote:
Miss Taken wrote:What I can't believe about Australia is the price of housing (though I have heard it is going up). An average house over here (UK) costs around £250,000. Not sure what that would be in dollars. That would buy a small, semi-detached 3 bedroom house on an ex council estate within a 50 mile radius of London. Crazy money.


That is crazy. That's about AUS$600,000. Depending on where you live in Oz, you can get a good sized four or five bedroom home, with swimming pool, in a good area, for that price. You can get a respectable three bedroom home with a big yard for around 127,000 pounds (don't have the pound money symbol on my keyboard).

by the way, Mary, I got your PM and will reply in detail later.


In the USA 250,000 lbs (I don't have a pound sign...I think that's about $500,000+ US Dollars) would be enough cash to probably get you a very nice house in most suburbs in the US.....you're not living on Manhattan island, but you'll be in plenty of house space....
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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