The Nature of the Holy Spirit

[_JAK]

Jak,

My point is that some of it is real. But you'll have to experience it for yourself taking no one's word for it.

Don't blow your whole life without witnessing and acknowledging one for what it is.

Really? What’s “real”? What’s fiction? What are the tests to determine the difference with objectivity and intellectual integrity?

Absent presentation of that distinction, what’s real and what is fiction is not established. And it’s not established by repetition of religious dogma. I believe, I believe, I believe fails to establish your vague claim for “some.”

“Experience” as in emotional feelings do not make for reliability. We should not take your word for the claim. Some claim what they see at a séance is real. A child sees a magician and believes what he sees. (Out of thin air comes a rabbit.) But rational people know a magic show is professional deception.

Some children grow up. Some don’t.

Claims absent evidence should be disregarded.

JAK

[_JAK]

Yes, JAK.

Nice science made the nice comforts come but yet people still aren't all (or even mostly) happy. When is science going to get on that?

Hate to break this to you JAK but your hard-core rationality is nothing without an emotionally-charged, subjective goal to aim at. Logic without a goal is useless. For that goal you have to turn to the 'dark dogma' or religion and philosophy.

Nehor, Do you think that maybe in ten, twenty or fifty years science may be able to tell when you are feeling spiritual through some super scan machine - say the absense of certain brain chemicals or more of certain brain chemicals can highly predict what you are seeing or feeling.

do you believe that ninety percent of what people think is spiritual is just luck. Is your ability to sense fear or something just a sixth sense that has allowed your genes to survive to this point.

I do belive in some outside source of power/strenght or love but that is the exception where everyone is so quick to point success to God and failures to themselves or others. Also, there are some who can enduce euphoria through thought.

sorry, It's a lot of points.

thestyleguy stated:
I do belive in some outside source of power/strenght or love but that is the exception where everyone is so quick to point success to God and failures to themselves or others. Also, there are some who can enduce euphoria through thought.

Why? Absent evidence for supernatural manipulation, such claim lacks merit. Just how do you accurately assess “the exception” you claim here? I’m skeptical.

Is it your position that if you can’t understand, God did it? Is that your view? God gave people polio because of their sin. That was prior to the discovery/invention of the polio vaccine by Jonas Salk.

Those who had been indoctrinated by religion who first received the vaccine considered that God did it. Today, we know the polio vaccine was a result of hard work by a medical scientist. God notions are irrelevant.

JAK

[_The Nehor]

Nehor, Do you think that maybe in ten, twenty or fifty years science may be able to tell when you are feeling spiritual through some super scan machine - say the absense of certain brain chemicals or more of certain brain chemicals can highly predict what you are seeing or feeling.

do you believe that ninety percent of what people think is spiritual is just luck. Is your ability to sense fear or something just a sixth sense that has allowed your genes to survive to this point.

I do belive in some outside source of power/strenght or love but that is the exception where everyone is so quick to point success to God and failures to themselves or others. Also, there are some who can enduce euphoria through thought.

sorry, It's a lot of points.

Possibly, I'd like to test that myself to be honest but I don't have access to the equipment to do so unfortunately. Some time ago I even took an informal survey of people describing how spiritual sensations are received by them, attempting to find a common element to explain the communication. I never got very far.

Part of the problem is that I suspect (but cannot prove) that a good many of the spiritual experiences reported are false. Some people's spiritual communications seem to be borderline-schizophrenic in their vagueness and contradictions. Most LDS have met at least one person who inwardly groans every time someone says something along the lines of, "I feel inspired to......" I suspect many of these people are attempting to use God to justify what they want.

The problem with spiritual communication is they have no parallel in regular living. We have no words that really fit when describing them. Even the scriptures can offer only vague allusions (burning in bosom, speak to your mind). Too often people describe as spiritual what I would describe as simple happiness. "I have a good feeling about something" comes to mean "The Spirit told me..."

The above is all supposition and guesses though. Spiritual experiences are almost always very individual and I can judge only mine.

[_The Nehor]

JAK, why are you here on a religious discussion board if your position consists solely of demanding evidence we've never claimed to have?

[_JAK]

JAK, why are you here on a religious discussion board if your position consists solely of demanding evidence we've never claimed to have?

I’m here primarily by accident. Once here, I read posts such as yours, address your words directly, present analysis, and ask questions.

An appropriate/honest response could be a direct quote of that analysis and straight-forward answers to the questions I have raised. Evasion or misrepresentation seems inappropriate and disingenuous.

Contrary to your statement, you implicitly claim and directly state claims as if they were established fact. If they were established fact, you should be able to present evidence when challenged to do so.

JAK

[_Inconceivable]

Jak said something like..

When it’s 105 degrees, do you prefer air-conditioning?

..You’re dishonest here unless you claim applied science as you avail yourself of that makes you unhappy. Is that your claim? Do modern conveniences which science makes possible including health care makes you unhappy? I doubt it.

[color=#3CB371]

I'm still trying pin down a scientifically quantifiable and objective definition of "happy".


Jak, how do you REALLY know whether or not my air conditioner makes me happy? What sort of data would you be collecting and crunching?


I'm somewhat of an intellectual midget so I'm one of the dumb ones that always thought "happy" was an emotional state.

(sheesh. totally screwed up the colors, man)

[_marg]

Jak said something like..

When it’s 105 degrees, do you prefer air-conditioning?

..You’re dishonest here unless you claim applied science as you avail yourself of that makes you unhappy. Is that your claim? Do modern conveniences which science makes possible including health care makes you unhappy? I doubt it.

[color=#3CB371]


(sheesh. totally screwed up the colors, man)

You didn't quote JAK. He didn't use those colors. Are you trying to be irritating/rude?

[_Inconceivable]

Jak said something like..

When it’s 105 degrees, do you prefer air-conditioning?

..You’re dishonest here unless you claim applied science as you avail yourself of that makes you unhappy. Is that your claim? Do modern conveniences which science makes possible including health care makes you unhappy? I doubt it.

(sheesh. totally screwed up the colors, man)

You didn't quote JAK. He didn't use those color s . Are you trying to be irritating/rude?

You're kidding, right?

[_The Nehor]

Jak said something like..

When it’s 105 degrees, do you prefer air-conditioning?

..You’re dishonest here unless you claim applied science as you avail yourself of that makes you unhappy. Is that your claim? Do modern conveniences which science makes possible including health care makes you unhappy? I doubt it.

(sheesh. totally screwed up the colors, man)

You didn't quote JAK. He didn't use those color s . Are you trying to be irritating/rude?

You're kidding, right?

Thanks for the laugh, my earlier attempts at this kind of humor were lost on everyone, thanks for getting it right.

[_marg]

Thanks for the laugh, my earlier attempts at this kind of humor were lost on everyone, thanks for getting it right.

Please explain the humor, I don't get it.