Why is Joseph Smith's polygamy controversial?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

It seems the question of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy is controversial. Were the marriages for time, or were they eternal marriages only? Did he consummate his marriages? etc. And some TBMs deny that he was a polygamist at all. Why is this? It is an admitted fact that Brigham Young and the Utah Mormons practiced polygamy. They were married to their plural wives for time and all eternity. They consumated their marriages with their plural wives. The revelation allowing them to do all these things came from Joseph Smith. So why is it no big deal for Brigham Young and the Utah saints to do all these things with their plural wives, but a big deal for Joseph Smith to do it? Why do TBMs deny he had sex with his plural wives? The record may not be clear, but they were his wives, so who cares if he did? If I see a married couple without kids, there is no evidence they had sex, but they probably did, and who cares? Same with Joseph Smith, right?

[_Scottie]

I have been asking for quite a while now for any apologist to show me exactly where the doctrine changed from Joseph Smith to BY.

Why in the world would we believe that Joseph Smith wasn't practicing polygamy the exact same way as BY did, except in secret?

But your other question is a good one. Since when does it matter what Joseph Smith did or did not do? It was all under the umbrella of prophet-hood, so it's all fair game, right?

I've also asked the question, what crime would Joseph Smith have to had committed in order for it to disturb a TBM? He could have sacrificed children on an alter and apologists would be pointing to the Bible where it had been done before!

[_truth dancer]

A couple of things...

First Joseph Smith vehemently denied he had other wives... so to admit he did indeed have other wives means he lied.

Secondly, lots of guys are fine and dandy with having a harem and don't think it is a big deal until the realization hits them that Joseph Smith took the wives of other men, and very likely slept with them. Maybe some guys do not like the idea of the powerful leaders taking (sleeping) with their wives?

Also, it completely dismisses the idea that men took multiple women to care for them. Aside from the nonsense that one needs to marry a woman in order to help her, Joseph Smith's alternative partnering ideas clearly show that the idea of a harem had nothing to do with caring for women.

~dancer~

[_SatanWasSetUp]

A couple of things...

First Joseph Smith vehemently denied he had other wives... so to admit he did indeed have other wives means he lied.

Secondly, lots of guys are fine and dandy with having a harem and don't think it is a big deal until the realization hits them that Joseph Smith took the wives of other men, and very likely slept with them. Maybe some guys do not like the idea of the powerful leaders taking (sleeping) with their wives?

Also, it completely dismisses the idea that men took multiple women to care for them. Aside from the nonsense that one needs to marry a woman in order to help her, Joseph Smith's alternative partnering ideas clearly show that the idea of a harem had nothing to do with caring for women.

~dancer~

This would explain why naïve TBMs are troubled by Joseph Smith polygamy. They think polygamy in Utah was a utopia where widows were brought in and cared for by a valiant priesthood holder, and this situation was brought about by the persecution and trek west which took the lives of so many faithful members.

But why would Internet Mormons, who know polygamy was started by Joseph Smith as early as 1831 and was expanded to his inner circle in Nauvoo, and who believe Joseph Smith was justified in his denials because the outside world wasn't ready for it, why would the Internet Mormons think that Joseph's polygamy would be any different from Brigham Young's polygamy, since they were based on the same revelation?

[_Dr. Shades]

This would explain why naïve TBMs are troubled by Joseph Smith polygamy. They think polygamy in Utah was a utopia where widows were brought in and cared for by a valiant priesthood holder, and this situation was brought about by the persecution and trek west which took the lives of so many faithful members.

Isn't it interesting that "persecution and [the] trek west" only killed Mormon men, and that Mormon women were completely immune?

[_Sethbag]

I think a lot of the hesitancy has to do with, as TD already mentioned, Joseph Smith having "married" other mens' wives. If he actually screwed these other mens' wives, that's way too much like adultery for most TBMs' taste. And there's no precedent in scripture, that I can think of, to justify marriage to an already-married woman. Even section 132 of the D&C requires the plural wives to be virgins.

I also believe that a lot of the rationalizations of Joseph Smith's public lies about his polygamy involve the "semantic argument" that these weren't normal marriages in a conventional sense, so that saying he didn't have multiple "wives" wasn't entirely inaccurate. Ie: these were dynastic ties only, or else they were celestial sealings intended to be for eternity only (not practiced during "time"), and similar such logic. But these arguments fall flat if Joseph Smith got naked with these women in bed and made love to them. All the "celestial sealings only" crap goes up in a puff of smoke if Joseph Smith was having sex with the women after his "sealings".

Personally, I don't even accept that these women were Joseph Smith's wives. Under what laws of the land were they married? The laws of the state actually declared that such marriages were not legal, so on what basis are these in fact marriages? Can I take a woman, have my own little private, secret ceremony, conducted on my own authority, and call that a marriage? Apparently the LDS church doesn't think so, which is why in the temple one promises to have sexual relations only with one's spouse, to whom one is legally and lawfully married. Joseph Smith's plural "marriages" were in no way legal, nor lawful. They were conducted on Joseph Smith's authority, which he claimed to have by virtue of his claiming to be a Prophet of God. So, claim to be a Prophet of God and you can do anything you want, eh?

[_truth dancer]

The thing is...

If Joseph Smith was preparing for a heavenly harem only, why the secrecy? Why the lies? Why the flaming sword? Why were the women hesitant? Why were the girls uncomfortable? Why was it any big deal at all?

Or course the women may not want to be in a heavenly harem, but it seems completely different than what would have occurred if there was not some sort of sexual relationship/harem in the real world.

For example... lets take, Helen Mar.... if Joseph Smith said something like, "if you join me in the next life, you and all your family will be guaranteed a place in the CKHL and you can have a completely normal earthly life, date and marry the boy down the road, and have a great life together", I have the sense it would not evoke quite the same known response from Helen.

~dancer~

Ohhh also Seth...

But these arguments fall flat if Joseph Smith got naked with these women in bed and made love to them. All the "celestial sealings only" crap goes up in a puff of smoke if Joseph Smith was having sex with the women after his "sealings".

I personally do not get the impression that Joseph Smith loved these thirty or forty other women... he may have had sex with them but I hold the term "making love," to include actual love. ;-) A guy manipulating, coercing, commanding women to pretend to marry him, in my opinion, excludes the possibility of love!

[_Sethbag]

Granted, but I was already getting too close to antagonizing TBMs with the "getting naked" part, but I did want this to be pretty blunt.

I'll rephrase.

All of the "celestial sealings only" and other attempts to mitigate the impact, meaning, and seriousness of Joseph Smith's polygamous practice go up in smoke if Joseph Smith, subsequent to his "sealings", was taking these women into a bedroom, taking their clothes off, and then having sexual relations with them. That is something so many of the TBM defenders seem to want to deflect, ie: the likelihood that, however one defines the relationship, as a "marriage", or a "sealing", or a "celestial sealing", or whatever, Joseph Smith probably had sexual intercourse with a great deal of different women, quite a few of whom were already married to other (still-living) men at the time Joseph Smith had whatever farcical, private, and secret ceremony you wish to talk about with them.

Joseph Smith was an adulterous, philandering, domineering, manipulative, mysoginistic brute of a man, at least in his sex life. He ought to have been ashamed of himself, and he is not worthy of the defense of him, and the adoration of him, that TBMs pour on him.

I find it very telling that at least two of his councilors in the First Presidency were actually excommunicated, in large part, based on their having accused Joseph Smith of adultery.

[_Runtu]

All of the "celestial sealings only" and other attempts to mitigate the impact, meaning, and seriousness of Joseph Smith's polygamous practice go up in smoke if Joseph Smith, subsequent to his "sealings", was taking these women into a bedroom, taking their clothes off, and then having sexual relations with them. That is something so many of the TBM defenders seem to want to deflect, ie: the likelihood that, however one defines the relationship, as a "marriage", or a "sealing", or a "celestial sealing", or whatever, Joseph Smith probably had sexual intercourse with a great deal of different women, quite a few of whom were already married to other (still-living) men at the time Joseph Smith had whatever farcical, private, and secret ceremony you wish to talk about with them.

The "celestial sealings only" thing stretches credulity. If the marriages were some sort of spiritual dynasty-building exercise that did not involve sexual relations, why hide the sealings from the public, Emma, and the husbands of some of the "brides"? It makes no sense. Why the expressions of shock and shame from the brides if they were merely being sealed to Joseph? What are we to make of Helen Mar Kimball's saying that she was mistaken in believing it was merely a ceremony? None of it makes sense if folks like charity and Deborah are correct in believing they were only sealings.

[_ktallamigo]

Let suppose that your family is about to lose their farm and you are really strapped for cash. A friend comes to you with a scheme to make a lot of money by publishing a book. You really want/need the money so you invest your time and effort into the project.

Once the project is completed, it becomes a success beyond your wildest imaginations. Pretty soon you are a celebrity, and people from all around are coming to meet you, to listen to you, to shake your hand, and are willing to give up their homes and previous and come live by you and be under your command.

Wow! How would you handle this?

Suppose that many of these new followers who worship you are beautiful women, or nubile young girls. They love you, they want you, they would do anything for you. But wait!! You are married. You love your wife, she hasn't done you any wrong, you don't want to be rid of her -- but what about all these others? You are a rock star to them -- they are under your power - they are there for the taking. But how can you enjoy these other women and without losing your new position as prophet of God?

Let's suppose one day you are reading in the old testament about King David and Abraham, and you get an idea of how to solve this problem. Reinstate the old principle of multiple wives and concubines. If it worked for David and Abraham it can work for you. BUt you gotta keep it secret.

A series of attractive young women work in your home, or you stay in homes where they are. They adore and idolize you. You want them. You take aside, say, Fanny - and explain to her that God is restoring the ancient ways and it is perfectly okay for her to sleep with you, even though you are married. She falls for it, because she loves you, and you are able to enjoy her.

But then she gets pregnant and the wife finds out about it. Oh no! Forget about the promises I made, get her out of here!!

Time passes by and you are wasting opportunities to be with other women. You don't want to get anyone else pregnant - too dangerous. Another solution: what have British kings and others done through the years to solve this problem? Sleep with married women!! If they get pregnant, no scandal!! Everyone will just assume it is the husband's child.

So for the next several years you approach the most attractive married women among your following, convince them of the "principle" of sleeping with you, and you can enjoy sexual access to the most attractive married women around. Except one or two who can't be coerced.

As word gets out about what you are doing, you find you need to get more support and increase security. You convert your closest friends and associates to the "principle", and they begin to practice it, find moral justiciation for it, and have a vested interest in it. They can also take women, as long as they are not the women you want.

You invent a secret secrecy ritual with secret handshakes and death oaths so no one will talk about what is going on. The men who know about the "principle" wear special clothes and know the secret signs, so you know whether a person is part of the secret or not.

Now that more and more of your most loyal followers are converted to your scheme and are practicing it, you are bolder, and can now do with more openness what you really wanted to do all along: sleep with the virgins! So, as almost in a frenzy, you begin to approach the real young hotties - not the older married ladies. A pair of sisters is entrusted to your care - bingo! The budding young beauty of one of your most devoted followers -- bingo! Another pair of sisters residing in your own home!

But -- oh no!. The wife catches you in the act again in your own home! Everything could fall apart - you could lose your status, or lose your access to the women - you aren't about to give up this privilege. Solution: write a revelation directly from God to your wife telling her what is what. She either goes along, or she is destroyed. That ought to intimidate her into shutting up!!

Unfortunately for you, word of what you are doing is getting out. DAmage control! You deny it publicly! You denounce and try to discredit those that are spreading the word. But it is too late. They publish what you are doing in a newspaper! You destroy the newspaper.

Oh oh. Now they want to arrest you for the newspaper fiasco.

And you haven't even had time to do the 14 year old hottie - yet.