The Reason I believed the LDS church was True..

[_JAK]

Nehor stated:
Inconceivable, I suggest throwing out your dignity, your doubts, your worries, and your fears for a time and then just be willing to listen. Take a page out of Lamoni's father's book and offer to give him all your sins in exchange for knowing him again.

I disagree. Inconceivable should retain his “dignity,” be intellectually honest about his “doubts,” and think outside the box you prescribe. He should not feel guilty. He should not lament “sins.” He should not remain a victim of any religious dogma.

He should rise to the level of comprehension for which he has capability with an open mind, a clear conscience, and a good mood.

JAK

[_JAK]

barrelomonkeys stated:
Funny thing. I never believed God was with me or had any truth other than I was a little hedonist having a hell of a good time. Don't know what that means if anything.

That’s good. No evidence for God has been established. Prior to that, when people believed in gods (plural), there was no evidence for gods either. The evolution has been of shrinking gods.

Consider the god of the sun. For people who knew nothing about the size and scope of the universe known today, the sun was perceived as a god. What else could it be? It was worshipped, respected, feared, and relied upon. It had to be a god!

Today, we know our sun is one of billions and billions of other suns. Today, we understand (or can understand through science) a great deal about the make up of the sun.

We also understand the earth is not flat. It does not have “four corners.” It is not the center of the universe. God notions are irrelevant.

JAK

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks all of you for your input. Your perspectives are very welcome (except you JAK. I have no idea what you are doing here other than to annoy yourself).

Marj said:
Well I guess yes I have had such experiences but never attributed good fortune to a God. But maybe you are right. I should thank God that I had parents who didn't indoctrinate me into any organized religion and thank God I did not waste countless hours, time, energy and money on the trappings of it all.

You know, Marj, sometimes I wish I could just reformat my corrupted hard drive, but it is what it is. About all I can do short of this is a defrag and keep freeing up space for useful data. Maybe I might share more of my background sometime. Suffice to say, my family didn't quite fit your stereotype, but it's close enough.

You seem well adjusted. Not sure why you posted either. You and JAK might get together and start your very own thread entitled "What am I doing here??" because I certainly am in the dark.

[_Inconceivable]

Nehor stated:
I realized that God did not want me to pass judgment on Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all the rest. I'm pretty sure a 5 minute interview with them would set my mind even more at ease but such is not to be.

If the interview consisted of him asking for my 14 (or even 17) year old daughter's hand in an illegal marriage, I may very well have shot and killed him. Particularly if I were aware that he tied on over 20 others and his only legal wife was not even aware of it. If I had met him on the street or in the church without the knowledge of what he emphatically and publicly denied, perhaps we could have become fast friends.

If Joseph or Brigham broke the Law of God that is their problem, not mine. It also doesn't disqualify them from their callings.

I recall the story of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). So far as I can understand, they lied about paying a full tithe so God disqualified them from temporal membership in His church - "Death on the spot" (to coin a phrase from Brigham Young).

Some of my greatest spiritual experiences have come when I least deserved them. Gotta love that atonement. Good luck in your search.

Thankyou. I recall where, as a sinner I felt released from guilt and dispair. You judge yourself too harshly. God most likely judged you perfectly. Thanks for your kind words.

Inconceivable, I suggest throwing out your dignity, your doubts, your worries, and your fears for a time and then just be willing to listen. Take a page out of Lamoni's father's book and offer to give him all your sins in exchange for knowing him again.

I had a TBM father that has spent at least the second half of his life as a deeply duplicitous individual. What you saw was not what you got. It took 25 years for his best friend to become aware of what my mother and siblings knew about him. When his (former) friend approached me and asked for forgiveness (for seeing the rest of us as we saw our father), I felt obsolved, renewed and vindicated. Yet my father remains untrustworthy. Trust is a sacred charge. When it is broken it must be corrected and renewed. Otherwise the violation remains. That is why I have reacted the way I have concerning the founders of the church.

Speaking of the dark activities of the founding shepherds of Christ of the Mormon church:

Violation amidst the public requires a public penance. There was no confession, so there was no sin, only public justification.

I don't believe it is my dignity that is at stake, but I think you are right - I am still busy counting to ten (in other words, perhaps I am yet too angry to be willing to listen to the One they testified to represent).


And yes, I would give all that I have to receive what Lamoni's father asked for.

[_Inconceivable]

Hi Inconceivable,

I have had many, many such experiences.

What I have learned is that people the world over are having similar experiences virtually all the time and they are not Mormon...

..As I have released belief, I have had even more such "miraculous" experiences in my life.
~dancer~

After I completed some work for a man I had casually known for a few years, he asked me to save some time for him because he wanted to witness to me.

His story was quite compelling (witnessed by his wife, parents and doctor). He had destroyed his body through drugs and alcohol, he was mean, he lay there in the hospital feeling the death taking him just as surely as the doctors predicted. He prayed to Jesus and covenanted with him that if he could somehow help him out of this one last spot he would repent and turn from his wickedness. The pain left him - physical as well as spiritual. He was healed, all alone, in the hospital bed. He's a man I can trust. His peaceable walk is a testimony of his convictions. We've been friends of 12 years now.

I am convinced of what you say as well, TD. Kindness from the unseen world transcends religeon, races and cultures. It all seems to convey a message of unconditional love.

[_Inconceivable]

How about similar experiences where nothing happened? I've had these types of experiences..

Driving on the freeway, I've felt prompted to switch lanes for some reason, and have done so. But nothing happened.
Or waking up in the night, feeling the need to check on one of my children, and done so. But there was nothing wrong.
Or feeling the need to get in touch someone out of the blue to check on them. But they were fine.

How often do we forget about those experiences, and only remember the ones where it did result in something "miraculous"?

I guess the fact of the matter is that everything was alright. Just because the tower requests that the pilot check his heading doesn't mean he's off course.

[_The Nehor]

Speaking of the dark activities of the founding shepherds of Christ of the Mormon church:

Violation amidst the public requires a public penance. There was no confession, so there was no sin, only public justification.

I don't think they were the monsters they are made out to be. The evidence has not convinced me. I don't think they were demigods of virtue either. I stick with the happy medium.

[Guest]

..I've had lots of close calls and have no idea why 1. I'm still alive or 2 Have a semi functioning brain. :)

I've had instances where I think of someone and I'm about to call them and wala they are calling me. I've had aha moments that sort of staved off disaster. I've witnessed some pretty catastrophic things and yet was never the one hurt (maybe psychologically only).

I've wandered around in seedy areas of town in the wee hours of the morning. I've depended on the kindness of strangers (funny there always were a few when I was really messed up) and no matter how low I got in life I sort of bounced right back up. I hitch hiked, was homeless, did lots of risky behavior and yet somehow skated right on through. Quite a few of my friends did not make it out of the lifestyle we lived.

Funny thing. I never believed God was with me or had any truth other than I was a little hedonist having a hell of a good time. Don't know what that means if anything.

(correction)
The man that I participated in the healing blessing was my former brother in law. He sang at my mission farewell a few weeks later. At that time he sported a "lucky 13" tattoo, had confessed unspeakable things, spent 3 years in prison and was a heroin addict. He even died in my arms on a previous occasion after attempting suicide. He's spent the more part of his life getting degrees in prison, homeless or just trying to dry out again. I talked to him for the first time in 20 years just a few months ago. He's now dieing of everything. Homebound, respirator etc. I'm not always sure what to think, but it is amazing that he has survived this long and has had the time in mortality to learn wisdom at his pace. A Book of Mormon teacher at BYU said that it's not where you are on the road but what direction your facing. I think I get that.

I believed that the day he was healed in the ER was God's way of saying that every soul has value and that man can call down a miracle from heaven.

"well, brother, it's ironic that you finally get your mind together when your body falls apart".


(By the way, sorry to all of you for hogging so much bandwidth)

[_Inconceivable]

People all over the world have spiritual experiences that give them a stronger belief in God and in most cases strengths their faith in the religion that they are apart of.

That night we sort of had a testimony meeting and the boys where talking about how God saved them and that this Church is so true! I found it a little sad that they thought that God only helped them because they were part of the true church.

I am sure that many evangelical kids have similar experiences at Bible camp and people of other faiths have their spiritual experiences.

I suffered from the "this equals that" syndrome all my life. But why would I not have? "If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet.. so.. you owe $6,579.47 (because you netted $65K last year).

I would appreciate that if God goes to all the trouble of presenting us a miracle that He would do a better job of helping us to draw the proper conclusions.

[_Nephi]

Maybe this church isn't what you need on your spiritual journey right now. Sometimes the strait and narrow path (which is your unique path) goes somewhere else where the other people in this church do not. As long as you search, ask questions, and look for answers, you are never far from the path. It is better to go searching than to stay stagnant within a church trying to make a circle fit in a square. Just be careful out there where you do journey, and don't throw away the church. Maybe your path is just leading you to a side journey, and you come back afterwards. Just be careful that you journey for answers and not for self righteousness or pride. Good luck in all your journeys, and may God be with you at all times.