The Arrogance of Knowing "The Church is True"

[_Coggins7]

I am wondering what is motivating the need for some people to stereotype as "arrogant" an entire group of people (the LDS Church) and the beliefs that they hold? Is it love, and desire to better oneself and others? Is it intended to encourage mutual respect? Is it born of humility and an openness to other points of view?

And here is a second wonderer who is as baffled by this as you are.

[_Coggins7]

Yeah, since, you know---women get the priesthood; Blacks have always been able to get the priesthood; homosexuals are allowed into the temple; women can get into the CK without husband's help, etc., etc., etc.

And pompous, obsessive ideologues are allowed, in a free society, to make abject fools of themselves again and again and again as they endlessly regurgitate their personal obsessions and inner conflicts upon the public stage.

Isn't America great?

[_marg]

I wouldn't call what you're describing arrogance, I would call it dogmatic.

What could change my beliefs? A series of dreams, visions, impressions, clear thought, and direct communication from God that are more powerful than the ones I've had....I.e. more evidence another way.

Is it possible Nehor that your interpretation of what your dreams indicate are incorrect, that they are not reflective of an actual God but reflection of what is occuring in your mind onlyl?

How do you account for other people's beliefs in a particular God which differs to yours. Is it possible they are correct and you wrong? Is it possible all particular God beliefs are wrong?

If my God does not exist you would need to give me a rationale for how and why someone or something is conveying foreign things into my brain that are always accurate and sometimes prophetic. I would want to know who and why.

I am highly skeptical you are able to prophesize. It is more likely when events turn out as you hope for, you chalk it up to God's interference which you assume you correctly prophesized and when they don't, you chalk it up to God choosing to not intefere. If you could prophesize with close to 100% accuracy you'd be convincing. Tell me something which might convince me.

As for the Holy Ghost I suppose I would start to think I was wrong if it stopped. Most of what the Holy Ghost sends to me are not best described as feelings. Sensations is closer but still not fully right.

My core religious beliefs have altered on a fundamental level in the past 2 years (the whole time being active in Gospel). The new beliefs are better, more concise and much more useful. This is why dogmaticism in the Church is bad and even worse when it is in me. It stifles the ability to grow.

I'm highly skeptical that what I refer to as core religious beliefs, that is a belief in a particular supernatural fact, has changed for you. Has your particular (fundamental) God changed to another God, over the years? Has your particular afterlife belief changed, in what way? What I'm talking about Nehor are the universal certain beliefs, the God beliefs, the afterlife beliefs. All the other dogma which supports those fundamental beliefs can change but not the universal certain ones.

[_The Nehor]

If you'd asked me to describe heaven and year ago and again today what I said would be very different. Same with God. I expect I'm probably wrong on many points but that's where the fun is. I'm too young right now to have it all figured out anyways. Might get bored.

Regarding my dreams....probably not, since the experience is nearly identical to visions. You might call them hallucinations....however I have had classic hallucinations before and the experiences were very, very different.

Of course you're skeptical of the Gift of Prophecy. Until I'd experienced it I was skeptical despite believing in the Gospel as a whole. So far the checkable ones have a 100% accuracy. Some are uncheckable and a few probably won't be fulfilled for years (possibly decades) yet.

Since everything that has happened to me and everything I've experienced is occurring in my mind I would ask what other baseline I could use for judging anything.

[_marg]

Since everything that has happened to me and everything I've experienced is occurring in my mind I would ask what other baseline I could use for judging anything.

I don't think you do have any means by which to evaluate your beliefs independent of your subjective interpretations. You say you can prophesize. That could be tested. If you are serious, find some objective source to do so.

by the way with regards to the words arrogance and dogmatic they are different concepts. Arrogance conveys superiority in attitude, dogmaticism doesn't.

[_Polygamy Porter]

My certainty is greater now because I have evidence backing it.

Whatever.

I have evidence, too.

ROTFLMAO!!!

[_The Nehor]

Since everything that has happened to me and everything I've experienced is occurring in my mind I would ask what other baseline I could use for judging anything.

I don't think you do have any means by which to evaluate your beliefs independent of your subjective interpretations. You say you can prophesize. That could be tested. If you are serious, find some objective source to do so.

by the way with regards to the words arrogance and dogmatic they are different concepts. Arrogance conveys superiority in attitude, dogmaticism doesn't.

I agree and while I confess I can be arrogant, my religious beliefs aren't usually the cause. I find more dogmatic apologists online than I do arrogant ones.

If I could prophesy on demand I would do such a study. Problem is it just comes and I either know something or say something and it happens. However I doubt if I showed up at a university and offered to test my ability to prophesy and that I'd contact them when I did that they would take me seriously. Can't blame them really. In addition sometimes the things that come out are very, very private for me or someone else and I probably shouldn't share.

Finally, what would be the point if I could prove it? Would people flock to me as a prophet if I could prove it worked requesting lotto numbers?

[_Canucklehead]

What I find arrogant about the LDS belief system is the widely-held view that other people outside the belief system aren't truly happy (or at least as happy as they COULD be if only they believed the correct things).

Now, before all the TBMs on here jump up and down saying that no Mormons think this way, I will simply say that in my experience with the church (more than two decades), this view is very prevalent. How many times do we hear about how we need to bring the gospel to others, so that they can experience the same joy that we experienced (assuming that other people don't already experience it!!). How many times are the "less-active" referred to as "lost" or "deceived"? How many missionaries, upon hearing that their investigators didn't get the "correct" answer to their prayers, try to go about correcting how the person prayed (assuming that they MUST not have done it properly, otherwise they would have received the "correct" answer)?

What is arrogant is the presumption that your own personal spiritual experiences and your interpretation of them can form the basis for dictating how other people should live their lives.

I admit that when I used to think that way, I was being very arrogant.

[_The Nehor]

What I find arrogant about the LDS belief system is that other people outside the belief system aren't truly happy (or at least as happy as they COULD be if only they believed the correct things).

Now, before all the TBMs on here jump up and down saying that no Mormons think this way, I will simply say that in my experience with the church (more than two decades), this view is very prevalent. How many times do we hear about how we need to bring the gospel to others, so that they can experience the same joy that we experienced (assuming that other people don't already experience it!!). How many times are the "less-active" referred to as "lost" or "deceived"? How many missionaries, upon hearing that their investigators didn't get the "correct" answer to their prayers, try to go about correcting how the person prayed (assuming that they MUST not have done it properly, otherwise they would have received the "correct" answer)?

What is arrogant is the presumption that your own personal spiritual experiences and your interpretation of them can form the basis for dictating how other people should live their lives.

I admit that when I used to think that way, I was being very arrogant.

Partially true, but I think your expression in parentheses above is more accurate than the original statement. LDS do believe that people can be happier with their Gospel. I don't presume to dictate how others live their lives based on my experiences. However if sharing something that brings you joy and happiness is a crime call me guilty. And may others who are guilty continue to arrogantly share with me so I can choose from the things that they enjoy to increase my joy.

[_Canucklehead]

Of course, simply sharing something which has made you happy with others isn't what makes someone arrogant. I didn't mean to imply that this was the case.

However, if I invite someone to take a class that I have been enrolled in, or to join a club of which I am a member, that is not arrogant. However, if they tell me that they'd rather not, that it's not their "cup of tea" and I shake my head in sadness at their "hard-heartedness" (behind their backs) and cluck my tongue as I tell their story to other members of my club, all the while saying things like "if they only knew the truth" ... THAT is arrogance. If someone decides to leave the club, or drop the class, and I begin referring to them as a "lost sheep" or as having been "deceived" ... THAT is arrogance.

While I believe that you, Nehor, don't go around dictating to people how they should live their lives, the CHURCH as an organisation does. When fathers and mothers are barred from seeing their sons and daughters married, simply because they don't believe what the church says they must... THAT is arrogance. When the same situation occurs because someone hasn't paid their 10%, or has had a cup of coffee ... THAT is arrogance.